Keir Starmer replying to Jane on 5 Live

[RobinStrike]

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Jane if you are on here, thank you! It does sound to me as if he's having to think more seriously about this issue. But he's still saying toxic and most marginalised.

She is on here and posted this morning before she went on.

Here is the link https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/5107115-im-m-asking-kier-a-question-about-womens-rights-on-5-live-how-to-phrase-it?page=5&reply=136354998]]

Starmer is in a difficult position on this. I don’t know that it’d even be legally possible to blanket ban trans women from each and every women’s single-sex space but many won’t vote for him unless he promises to do just that.

Jane, HERO!!

THE EQUALITY ACT HAS A PROVISION WHICH MEANS TRANS WOMEN CAN ALREADY BE EXCLUDED FROM WOMENS ONLY SPACES , LOBBY GROUPS HAVE FALSELY REPRESENTED THE LAW SO MOST BUSINESSES DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

sorry for shouting it just pisses me off that the law has been so badly misrepresented that women look like they are in the wrong for wanting to uphold these single sex provisions .

Also Jane you are an absolute legend!

He said there would be safe spaces I honestly don't get the issue.
I think most woman in real life don't either.

"There are some people who don't identify with the gender they are born - / the sex they are born in, they are often traumatised " Okay, so what? They can not identify as men all they like. It doesn't mean they get to pretend they are women and everything must be changed for them. Jane even included a suggestion of a third space before Starmer said this.

Many people are traumatised in some way or another. Someone who faces the violence of the British state may, though being born British, not identify as being British. Must the French take them, on this basis? Culture and identity are less integral and less immutable, but there we don't allow for self ID. No country, however liberal its immigration laws, will ever allow for that.

The debate is 'toxic' because 'the Prime Minister made a transphobic joke'. It's not toxic because of the 'no debate' or because of consequences for women (physical or sexual, or in terms of access to services and jobs). It's toxic because maybe someone felt bad listening to Rishi Sunak.

I'd also love for soundbites to stop identifying as answers to questions.

I’m aware of that provision, and Starmer’s position is that he supports it. It allows transwomen to be excluded when it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

But it is not a blanket ban on transwomen from all women’s spaces, which is what many (including the caller) are demanding.

Jane - that was awesome 💪

Jane - you're wonderful!

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised he can't answer a simple question. He won't have my vote.

@OneOfAKind3 he can't answer because in this area he is not interested in women's rights in every area when it's women v minority, the minority will win . As he keeps saying, absolutely when it's a clear cut case of violence and rape, yes.
But men entering women's spaces and self id? No on that, it's all about the men's rights.

Keep bringing up the ‘trauma’ - like enough girls and women haven’t suffered trauma and this isn’t making it worse.

And why does it fall to ALL women and girls to have to relinquish their rights, safety and dignities to fix broken men?

Safe spaces rather than single sex spaces.

Starmers use of language is revealing.

He also still fails to explain how if getting a GRC is made even easier, how he and his government plan to protect spaces for women and girls.

Because he is refusing in law to clarify the meaning of the word woman to be an adult human female.

This is the slippery get around.

If women can be men then there is no upholding sex based rights and spaces.

Listen to the words carefully. Not "single-sex spaces" but "safe spaces" (which means safe for men, natch).

Starmer speaks in weasel words and obfuscation.

What have safe spaces got to do with sport?

It's single SEX spaces we want.

Surely if a rapist is going to go in a toilet or something they will find a way.
Again this has never been an issue in my life nor know of anyone it has affected. I know that can be seen as a strange argument. I honestly can't get my head around it. I have tried and tried but I just can't get as bothered as you all.

Hungry kids in school, crowded a and e. Working in a food bank all weigh on my mind more.

It’s not a question that has a simple answer.

The UK is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. The European Court of Human Rights have determined that transgender people have the right to be legally recognized as their chosen gender (which includes having their chosen sex marker on ID docs). This is why the UK had to introduce the Gender Recognition Act.

This right can be subject to some limitations, meaning transwomen (for example) don’t need to be treated as women in each an every instance. Our Equality Act, for example, allows for the exclusion of transgender people from single-sex spaces where it is proportionate to do so and serves a legitimate policy aim. An outright ban of transwomen from all women’s spaces, though, would likely fall afoul of human rights laws.

This is probably why the Tories haven’t made any effort to change the legislation while in office but, once it became abundantly clear they would no longer be in government, have suddenly declared that they’d change sex to mean biological sex throughout the Act (something they had admitted was unworkable when Liz Truss proposed it as a backbencher).

If the word woman has no meaning in law, how can we have women’s rights? Why are prisons single sex spaces. Why are public toilets single sex spaces. Why are women’s refuges and rape crisis centres single sex spaces. Why do women fight for female care in care homes and hospitals for intimate care?

I could go on, but honestly, seeing as this is not an issue in your life, why would I bother. It’s women like you, so willing to give away my rights, that make me so angry. Men, I expect it from them, but women? You are the traitors.

The UK is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. The European Court of Human Rights have determined that transgender people have the right to be legally recognized as their chosen gender (which includes having their chosen sex marker on ID docs). Can you explain why Hungary, which is also a signatory to the ECHR (as must all EU member states be) has been able to abolish changes to legal sex? They have had some pushback from the EU over this and the anti-gay provisions bought in at the same time, but most of their issues with the EU have been about their legal reforms (which did lead to a suspension of funds IIRC, like with Poland). It seems that except for some pushback of the 'international body disapproves' kind, they were able to get on with it? Any Hungarians here to be able to weigh in?

@whatternows it’s not just about rapists, obviously this is the worse case scenario. I do not consent to being a prop in best case a males delusions that he is female and worst case his sexual fantasies of being in women’s spaces where he is unwanted and knowing the women around him can’t do anything about it and the power kick he gets from this. I don’t really care if you don’t understand it, women’s spaces are not yours to give away

Hungary were found to be in breach of the convention back in 2020 but the resulting legal challenges are still working their way through the system. In 2023 a Hungarian Court upheld the ban but it’s now expected to be challenged in the European Court again. If they continue to refuse to change the law I expect various transgender people in Hungary will be able to successfully sue their government for compensation (and would be able to keep doing so until/unless the law is changed).

Starmer is in a difficult position on this. I don’t know that it’d even be legally possible to blanket ban trans women from each and every women’s single-sex space but many won’t vote for him unless he promises to do just that.

He's in a difficult position? Tough shit. If he can't blanket ban transwomen from women's single-sex spaces, he should actually admit that, instead of spouting a load of obfuscating drivel.