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General election 2024

Do you still think Brexit was a good idea?

129 replies

YouWillGetThere · 28/06/2024 13:13

Sorry ask a really fiddly question, but I just wondered if I could ask what people think about Brexit, with hindsight?

I have no opinion, one way or the other, tbh.

I've really enjoyed reading so many calm, sensible, Mumsnet threads on politics in the last few weeks. The anonymity allows people to speak honestly about their views, and I've been so glad understand what people really think, and why they vote the way they do.

I would be so interested to hear what people think and feel about Brexit, now we've had a chance to see how the country has changed as a consequence of it.

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YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 00:39

The thing I miss most is being on properly friendly terms with the French. I don't know why, because I know they're still just next door, but I miss them.

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Confusedbythistreat · 29/06/2024 00:39

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 00:37

That's true, and it was meant to be an indicative vote rather than a binding one, wasn't it?

I think Norway had an independence referendum but they had a much higher threshold required to trigger independence, which seemed more sensible.

I just think he couldn't conceive of a situation in which people would vote leave in any numbers. In hindsight, he probably should have checked that in advance.

Massive understatement of the century. Surely they have people to advise them , i.e most of the nation could have told him including Farage that this was an absolute necessity

paolo2145 · 29/06/2024 01:13

I think most sensible people knew certainly when it came to the economy and public services like NHS & hospitality Brexit was never going to be good. Even if managed well it was always going to hit economy hard for first 5-7 years.

However, the Tories have handled it horrendously and by constant demonizing of all immigrants, blaming the French & always trying to pick a fight with EU it has just made things 10x worse.

I honestly think that Starmer for all his blandness will actually forge a much more positive working relationship with EU and behave like a grown up and no threaten to ditch international treaties.

Who knows maybe after Labour have been in for a full term (if they get in) then they may be able to float idea of rejoining single market as i suspect majority of public/business will be onside by then.

mathanxiety · 29/06/2024 02:35

whyhavetheygotsomany · 28/06/2024 20:48

A lot more of us would be dead from Covid if we had stayed in. We had the vaccine under our control and we all had it That would never had happened otherwise.

Other countries did have vaccines - Pfizer, Moderna, etc. Moderna was authorised in December 2020. Pfizer was first available in December 2020. AstraZeneca was the second vaccine approved for use in the British vaccination progranme.

Funding to develop the AstraZeneca vaccine came from a variety of sources, among them British and American scientific institutes, and the European Commission. AstraZeneca itself is a Swedish company.

A lot fewer people would have died if the government hadn't sent sick people from hospitals to nursing homes.

Britain is an island but squandered that advantage.

Humphhhh · 29/06/2024 02:43

RoseAndRose · 28/06/2024 13:36

I think we're stuck with it.

And with Labour having a flagship policy that is only possible outside EU (introduction of VAT on education - a policy that seems very popular, particularly on MN), then I think the country is showing no appetite for rejoining and is instead supporting approaches that are incompatible with membership

That's because they realise that it isn't as simple as just going 'oh it was mistake, we'll take it back'. If we rejoin we won't have the same preferential treatment we had previously. As a minimum we'd need to adopt the Euro. We're screwed for a little while longer yet.

Crossingsout · 29/06/2024 06:57

LiveAtVillaVillekulla · 28/06/2024 22:44

From a European point of view Britain was always the odd man out, dragging its feet, dissenting when all the other countries were in agreement, etc. Practically, you still had a border and we needed to present passports to enter, you had your own currency. You were in, but separate, always have been, always will be. Stepping into Britain was like entering a different century, with different values and expectations (even more so now). Europeans get investments in infrastructure, health, education, reigning in profiteering for energy suppliers and intra-borders transport providers from their governments. Not the case at all in the UK. It's like you paid the membership fee but never got to play. What was the point? Was it worth it for easier travel and a little export?

I think you are confusing two things here. There was a lot of EU investment in the UK, especially in areas of extreme poverty which have dedicated funds and unfortunately quite a few areas in the UK qualified for this. When it came to EU decision making, the UK had a high percentage of its proposals being accepted - basically we got what we wanted most of the time! Running parallel to this was the toxic angle in the press that we did not get value out of being in the EU and that we were being dictated to. This was basically nonsense. A lot of the EU laws and regulations that Leave objected to had actually been our idea or had been supported by us in the first place.

Amsx · 29/06/2024 06:59

Knew it was a shit idea and still do

EasternStandard · 29/06/2024 07:07

MariaLuna · 28/06/2024 23:59

I do think David Cameron should be in prison

Oh, don't be ridiculous.

You collectively shot yourself in the foot.

Wait till Trump gets in. THEN ye're in fucking trouble....

Where do you live @MariaLuna ?

You may be right btw

Zonder · 29/06/2024 07:18

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 00:37

That's true, and it was meant to be an indicative vote rather than a binding one, wasn't it?

I think Norway had an independence referendum but they had a much higher threshold required to trigger independence, which seemed more sensible.

I just think he couldn't conceive of a situation in which people would vote leave in any numbers. In hindsight, he probably should have checked that in advance.

Independence from what? Norway has never been in the EU.

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 07:32

Norway became independent from its union with Sweden, following a referendum im which their population voted 99.95% in favour of independence.

You can see the details if you search for "Dissolution of the union between Norway and Sweden" on wikipaedia.

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Zonder · 29/06/2024 07:37

Ah. I'm aware of that but it was over a century ago and from context it sounded like you were talking about the EU.

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 07:40

Sorry, yes I see what you mean. Glad you pointed that out.

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LiveAtVillaVillekulla · 29/06/2024 10:20

Crossingsout · 29/06/2024 06:57

I think you are confusing two things here. There was a lot of EU investment in the UK, especially in areas of extreme poverty which have dedicated funds and unfortunately quite a few areas in the UK qualified for this. When it came to EU decision making, the UK had a high percentage of its proposals being accepted - basically we got what we wanted most of the time! Running parallel to this was the toxic angle in the press that we did not get value out of being in the EU and that we were being dictated to. This was basically nonsense. A lot of the EU laws and regulations that Leave objected to had actually been our idea or had been supported by us in the first place.

Yes, the EU poured money into the UK and it was used to 'invest' in diverse niche projects. Can you name one? They were so useless that there's not even some legacy benefits.
Yes, the UK did get its way most of the time, against all other belonging countries. So? Why do you want to belong to a club and systematically argue that you are special and that rules should be different for you?
Generally Britain wanted the worst of both worlds; EU whitewashing together with a raging nihilistic capitalist economy; 'cleverly' pandering to multinationals whilst picking and choosing from the EU.
There was something like zero practical, visible benefit to UK citizens. (Maybe shorter queues at borders.) The truth is Britain is in a succession of abusive marriages with its own governments. Maybe it needs to sort itself out before thinking of another relationship.
EU citizens can see what the EU does, or at least believe it does. They live in countries that still function, where infrastructure and services look to be ran to serve them, where investment is visible.
Maybe you should step outside sometime and get some perspective: the answer to everything isn't always to call people stupid if they see things differently.

Crossingsout · 29/06/2024 10:33

LiveAtVillaVillekulla · 29/06/2024 10:20

Yes, the EU poured money into the UK and it was used to 'invest' in diverse niche projects. Can you name one? They were so useless that there's not even some legacy benefits.
Yes, the UK did get its way most of the time, against all other belonging countries. So? Why do you want to belong to a club and systematically argue that you are special and that rules should be different for you?
Generally Britain wanted the worst of both worlds; EU whitewashing together with a raging nihilistic capitalist economy; 'cleverly' pandering to multinationals whilst picking and choosing from the EU.
There was something like zero practical, visible benefit to UK citizens. (Maybe shorter queues at borders.) The truth is Britain is in a succession of abusive marriages with its own governments. Maybe it needs to sort itself out before thinking of another relationship.
EU citizens can see what the EU does, or at least believe it does. They live in countries that still function, where infrastructure and services look to be ran to serve them, where investment is visible.
Maybe you should step outside sometime and get some perspective: the answer to everything isn't always to call people stupid if they see things differently.

Edited

Can you tell me where I called you stupid? I didn't make any personal comments at all, rather I was responding to the content of your post in a calm manner. Which is the nature of a discussion forum. 🤔 Bizarre response.

LiveAtVillaVillekulla · 29/06/2024 11:35

@Crossingsout Do not tell people are 'confused' just because they have a different viewpoint to yours and you have no arguments then. Simple.

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 12:38

@LiveAtVillaVillekulla I do agree with this:

"The truth is Britain is in a succession of abusive marriages with its own governments. Maybe it needs to sort itself out before thinking of another relationship."

For me, I did see some benefit from the EU because when I was a child the beaches near us were covered in sewage, and it was the EU that forced the British government to clear them up. We lived out in the sticks with little to do but go to the beach, so this made an enormous difference to use.

Later on as a scientist I saw the different that EU science funding made, and expecially when we could collaborate with other academic institutions in europe and apply for funding as a group. I think we lost that through brexit.

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Crossingsout · 29/06/2024 12:41

@LiveAtVillaVillekulla Do not tell people are 'confused' . I didn't. Just like I didn't say you were stupid. Perhaps you could stop attributing words to me that I didn't say, it's getting a bit ridiculous now. I suggest you stick to discussing the topic rather than throwing about unfounded insults and misquoting me which is against the chat guidelines.

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 13:04

As the thread OP could I suggest that we either ignore or report aggressive posts? It would be great if we could stay on topic.

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LiveAtVillaVillekulla · 29/06/2024 19:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 21:20

I suppose the next question is "where do we go from here?" in our relationship with the EU.

I'm quite glad that Keir Starmer had the EU brief a while back, because he must know all the details.

I'm wondering whether the far right shft in Europe means that other countries want to dial back EU integration as well. Perhaps if they do, then EU reform could be possible and our reintegration on some level would become feasible.

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WiseBiscuit · 29/06/2024 21:23

I think it’s far too soon to tell. Such a huge change needs a good decade to embed and with the chaos caused globally by carious events you can’t make fair comparisons.

I reserve judgement until at least 2030.

YouWillGetThere · 29/06/2024 21:24

Gosh, yes, I suppose it will all become clear.

I have this feeling that far right parties probably act quickly. Not sure, but they don't seem the sort to hang about.

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Happyinarcon · 21/07/2024 13:41

YouWillGetThere · 28/06/2024 22:43

I think this (below) is sort of what happened. Apologies if I am talking rubbish. I have only an approximate idea of what is going on.

The leave people told us that the NHS was falling apart because we were paying enormous amounts of money to the EU. They said if we stopped doing that, they they would give the money to the NHS instead. Boris Johnson wrote this promise on the side of a red London Bus, which somehow made people actually believe it.

The leavers also said they would "get back control of our borders" and stop illegal immigration.

However, what actually happened is this:

All the EU migrants who were staffing the NHS went home, leaving terrible staff shortages. We also have terrible shortages of teachers in schools. The UK government had been mis-managing the NHS and schools for years, meaning that a lot of British people are not well enough or educated enough to manage the jobs that are now unfilled. So the people are poor, unemployed and unwell, and they can't get help, because the medics have gone home. That sounds like an exaggeration, but I don't think it is really.

Medically things are hard. We have massive waiting lists for NHS treatment. Many people haven't seen a doctor in person for 4 years.

The schools are in crisis, and a lot of kids are out of school with panic attacks, because they can't cope any more. A lot of teachers are finding it so hard that they are leaving.

Boris Johnson said that we would stop having EU migrants who don't speak English and that instead we would have commonwealth migrants who do speak English. Which was a pretty weird thing to say out loud. I mean how xenophonic is that? From what I can see here, the commonwealth immigrants largely decided to stay home, and who can blame them?

The situation with customs seems to have changed somehow and now there are serious shortages of medicines in the UK

There were food shortages for a while. Now I think the government can't impose proper border controls because we don't have enough customs agents to check all the food coming across the channel. So I think there is currently enough food, but it is not being properly checked at customs, as far as I can tell.

The leavers said we would get better trade deals with countries across the world, once we were free from the EU. But in fact the other countries saw how badly the leavers were treating northern Ireland, and decided to stick with prioritising the EU. We seem to be at the back of the queue for getting trade deals.

A lot of small businesses were making their money by selling to the EU, and after Brexit there was a huge amount of paperwork for them to do if they wanted to export to the EU. They couldn't do the paperwork so they can no longer make anywhere near as much money as they used to. Some have lost as much as 90% of their business.

We used to make a huge amount of money from the work of performing musicians but in order to make all that money, they needed to be able to travel without restriction across the EU. Post brexit, they lost the right to travel freely and were burdened with massive amounts of paperwork for every border crossing. So our music industry has been in terrible trouble post brexit and has lost a lot of money both for themselves and for the treasury in tax that they would have paid.

On consequence of this is that our "economy has not grown as much as it should". I don't exactly know what that means, but I think it means that we don't have as many people trading and earning money as we should.

So we have less tax being paid I think.

So we have less money to pay the NHS and the school teachers.

Also there were a lot of organisation that were very important, which we shared with the whole EU. Things like the European Medicines Agency, for example. It saved us a lot of money being able to share that with all the EU countries, rather than having to have one of our own. There were a lot of agencies like that and post-brexit I think we need to build our own copy of all those agencies which is very expensive.

The leavers promised us that we would leave the EU and then we wouldn't have to abide by silly rules that were harming us, but it didn't pan out like that. For example I think the EU banned the sale of certain kinds of fluorescent and halogen light bulbs, which is a problem for people who get migraines from LED light bulbs. Technically, now we're outside the EU we could go back to making safe light bulbs for those people. But in practice it never happened, because the country has been scrambling to cope with the fallout of Brexit ever since.

Conversely, I think the upsides of Brexit are:

  1. house prices have dipped a bit.
  2. There would be less competition for jobs amongst tradesmen, if anybody could still afford to have work done on their house.
  3. We now have a 1970s-esque excuse to be permanently miserable.

It hasn't happened yet, but I confidently expect brown trousers to become high fashion in the UK soon. (1970s fashion joke)

Sorry if any of the above is total rubbish. I just really want to understand what the heck is going on and I feel like saying what I think it going on might help to draw out information about what is actually going on from someone who knows.

Does any of what I've said above seem about right? I would really like to understand where we are.

In retrospect I probably had too much faith in the British government to manage anything, which I don’t feel was a ridiculous expectation at the time. I feel that the government has failed in a variety of ways that that get blamed on Brexit and cause people to blame each other needlessly. British doctors leaving to Australia isn’t because of Brexit, boat loads of illegal immigrants isn’t because of Brexit, neither are failing schools. I feel that the British government could have decided to bulldoze Buckingham palace and say the EU would have stopped it so blame it on Brexit.

If our government is fundamentally incapable of running this country I feel that is an issue we all need to acknowledge and pointing the finger and Brexit voters, which is why I said in my original post that I suspect we would be in the same mess if we had voted to remain

MadeleineMummy · 10/09/2024 12:20

I have not talked to my leave voting brother (who is a farmer and struggling due to Brexit) since. My daughter was studying veterinary science in Hungary as it was a lot cheaper. She has fewer prospects in the EU since she graduated.

verdantverdure · 25/09/2024 00:00

Brexit's such a good idea that every government since Brexit has had to postpone implementing the Brexit border changes because of the damage the Brexit barriers will do to our economy and ability to eat.

Meanwhile our borders are wide open.

>slow hand clap<