What's going on with the far right parties?

[ItsPrettyGoodReally]

Hi,

I wondered if anybody might know what it is that means far right parties are rising in so many countries?

I was really desperate for this general election so we could get rid of the tories and get a labour government. But now suddenly people are talking about the far right in the UK, and in France and Germany, and Trump seems to be doing well in America.

I do kind of understand that maybe it's a reaction against globalisation and a return to the nation state.

However, I also see the massive gap between the ultra rich and the rest of us, and that reminds me of the way things were just before WWII, which is not a good thing.

It all feels a bit 1932 to me, and I would rather that the world was keeping a calm head while dealing with all the challenges.

Does anybody out there have a way to rationalise the situation that seems like there is a safe and calm way out of all this?

I think the key is that we all (across the globe) have to keep respecting democracy, and talking, and voting, and above all keeping our best calmest heads on, but I would be glad to know what others think.

Thanks!

@AsDaysGoBy This is fantastically helpful thank you. If you have time I would be glad to have loads more of these examples.

I married into an Irish Family and the Irish folks I know have a huge amount of resentment against the UK (England and Scotland). I grew up in Scotland and my primary school peers had a massive amount of resentment against England.

Not wishing to dwell on that though, my job right now is to load my son up with reasons to be proud of being English, and honestly, I'll take all they help you are willing to give.

I have a lot of really weird cultural questions that I would be so glad to ask. For example, when Flanders and Swann sang the "Song of Patriotic Prejudice", do you think they were joking, or at least partly joking, or did they actually mean it? (Please say that they were joking!)

Also that other thread recently that allowed conservative voters to talk about why they vote conservative was fantastically helpful to me. I've always wondered why the do, after living through the destruction of the shipyards in my childhood. Hearing those people talk kind of gave me a bit of closure on that.

Also do you know of any situations in history when the English were the first to make a big breakthrough in being compassionate or selfless? I mean were they the first to give women the vote or anything like that.

Thank you very much for reading. I really appreciate your time.

Hitler attacked huge swathes of the German people before WW2 -Trade Unionists were some of the first. Then Communists, Socialists, Liberals, Roma, Jews, disabled etc etc. Ended up in Concentration Camps or dead. The Soviet Union was under no illusions they would be attacked; after all Hitler had written 'Mein Kamf' describing his plans. Eastern Europeans, Poles and Russians eg were 'untermenschen" to be reduced to slaves. He was backed by the big capitalist firms. Fascists want control of the state to bolster big capitalist organisations. Socialist want control of the state to serve the people. From each according to their ability : to each according to their need.
Stalin tried to get an agreement or pact with GB etc to join forces against Germany but was refused. That's why he made the pact with Hitler to buy time to prepare for the inevitable invasion.

How fascinating. When did these points of the programme take place? When were they executed? For example, when did the Nazis expand old age welfare? When did they implement trade share?

Flanders and Swann is a piss take OP. A gentle English one.

Oh good. I know you probably don't see it, but from the outside in countries like Ireland and Scotland, it's really not clear.

Do you have any good examples of the English being actually really nice to anybody? I think it would really be helpful to have that stuff on record.

Yeah lets not forget Freddie Mercury, Maurice and Charles Saatchi, Lucien Freud, Rita Ora, Judith Kerr, Marks & Spencer etc. etc. etc. etc.

Btw Churchill was a Conservative (although he did briefly cross the floor to the Liberal Party before returning to the Conservatives). So I guess we can say he was rightwing.

Before the Nazi party had even formed, before even WW1, Churchill was one the people behind the beginnings of what later became the UK Welfare State. It definitely needed improvement but it was the start and the push for it came from figures on both the right and left.

Fantastic! Thank you for this. This is exactly what I need.

Robert Baden-Powell was English too. I am a huge fan of Robert Baden-Powell.

I suppose the Labour party guy that founded the NHS was probably English wasn't he?

And actually my Grandad was English and he was a church minister.

<making notes now...>

I noticed that in the London New Year's Eve fireworks last year they had rainbow coloured fireworks, for the LGBTQ+ people. I thought that was very nice.

Also the Queen seemed nice. and King Charles likes plants, which has got to be good.

Dammit, and I'm getting good at this.

This has nothing to do with how immigration is planned in the UK. That's merely about economics and how you allocate resources. Nobody would be having discussions about 'English culture' if the NHS, Education system, and rail infrastructure was World class and peoples disposable income was high.

I know there were German Jews.

I’m sure Germany did have one of the most integrated and secular Jewish populations at the time.

I’m just saying what my grandfather (who by the way had an English/French father and German mother and he was actually born in Luxembourg) saw and noted as a child. I didn’t say there weren’t other rich business owners who weren’t Jewish. My grandfather experienced anti English comments as a child from teachers and adults even though he spoke fluent German, looked German and was to all intents and purposes German.

There just seems one obvious example, Michael Moseley. He did a lot of good in his life with his broadcasts on health. Britain is a great country because often there are people who are unassuming doing quietly marvellous things all the time. So often that it can go unremarked.

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain I understand how easy it is for opportunists to take advantage of poverty and austerity type conditions though, so I think I get what you were trying to explain in your post before.

Treaty of Versailles imposed very harsh conditions including heavy financial penalties on post WW1 Germany, and that impacted on the poor the most. (Some historians also believe that Treaty caused the Great Depression due to the destabilisation of the Germany economy and the knock on effects on other European economies).

So then some in Germany in despair turned to what they saw as their saviour. False saviour, but actually an important lesson imo in why people's struggles shouldn't be ignored and why austerity is not only morally wrong but also a dangerous destabilising false economy that actually worsens economic conditions.

Thank you, yes that's definitely true.

I volunteer very quietly in the NHS, and I feel good about being helpful. Two of my grandparents got an MBE and OBE respectively for doing tons of voluntary work. Both died in poverty, but it wasn't that they hadn't worked hard. They had just thrown all their life's work into unpaid community service.

I like listening to Princess Anne talking, because she is very aware of these quitely helpful people and goes out of her way to go and see them.

I suppose this is where I find the Conservative view very complicated, because they want people to be rewarded with money if they work hard. So many of my family have worked tirelessly for no money and done such a lot of good.

It's where I find the difference between right and left wing politics very complicated. I mean people are living by entirely different rules aren't they, while all co-existing in the same country. Some are driven by money and some are driven by doing good, but end up in poverty.

Sorry I'm blathering now.

German spending (anti austerity) after Hitler came to power led to an 'economic miracle' but ultimately bankrupted the country and made war inevitable at the only way out for the Nazi regime. They planned to plunder conquered nations to balance their books and repay their debts.

I don't think that the lesson from history is for governments to embark on feckless deficit spending.

Well why people volunteer is interesting because they usually feel an engagement nor connection with their community and sense of belonging, so I don’t think it odd when people dedicate themselves to matters other than money. I have seen this many times!

This goes back to far right politics; a strong community with its own moral sense can resist this kind of stuff. But poverty, violence, uncertain futures, uncaring government? Absolutely ripe for division and simple answers from populists.

@cupcaske123

Provided you fitted in to the racial or social groups approved by the Nazis then welfare was indeed expanded under the Nazis but removed entirely for other racial or social groups.

The welfare policies were initially implemented with old people's homes etc and with the key policy being Winterhilfswerk or winters help.

However when the war started there was a significant increase in demand for welfare support but with less money available.

Other policies such as trade share were conveniently forgotten. Although the Nazis did nationalise certain industries such as banks. For the majority of companies the Nazis allowed private ownership provided the Nazis controlled what your factory produced, the price you sold the products for and who you sold it to. Of course if you disagreed then you would be sent off to a concentration camp.

So it was effectively nationalisation but by controlling the owners rather than the actual company.

Very interesting.

I suppose the Labour party guy that founded the NHS was probably English wasn't he?

Hmm. I think OP may be slightly taking the pee. If not @ItsPrettyGoodReally you perhaps need to go to see this play. Though as someone who "quietly volunteers" for the NHS I am surprised you don't know its history.

https://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/productions/nye/

Yes I suppose connection with the community is hugely important and for those of us who are trying to integrate in a new community like we are, volunteering can be great for that. I will add that to the list.

We weren't the first to push for women's suffrage or to give women the vote, although we did join in fairly early.

But..

The NHS was the first health system in any Western society to offer free medical care to the entire population (in July 1948).

We were the 3rd country in the world to introduce a minimum wage in 1909 (following New Zealand and Australia).

Florence Nightingale was the founder of modern nursing (in the world) based on what she learned about how hygiene reduced death rates whilst caring for wounded soldiers in the Crimean war with her team of volunteer nurses. She was also a social campaigner and used statistics and clear writing to communicate medical ideas.

The Quaker movement (17th century) and the Methodist movement (18th century) both originated in England: notably pacifist and pro-social movements.

England drove the Abolition of slavery worldwide led by the Quakers. This included negotiating a treaty with European allies which included a declaration of what we now know as human rights: the first time in history that human rights had ever appeared in an international treaty.

I don't know much about Flanders and Swann "Song of Patriotic Prejudice", but it definitely reads as self-mocking satire to me. It's a type of very English humour, which comes from a knowledge of our national history (which is really very impressive)... but wryly self-deprecating and not taking it seriously, but instead poking fun at that very awareness. It doesn't translate - and is the kind of thing my non-English family just don't get. Very much English culture! Wikipedia says that Flanders and Swan were politically left-leaning with a strong degree of anti-authoritarianism. Swann was a Quaker and a pacifist, whose parents had escaped Russia after the 1917 revolution. Flanders had been a campaigner for disability rights since polio confined him to a wheelchair in 1943.

Sorry, no, I'm just gormless. Thank you for telling me. I'm now super-charged and ready to be delighted by Welsh people too. My favourite university lecturer was Welsh, though heavily disguised as an English person, confusingly.

I also like mount Snowden, which I have been up, and Rhyl Water Park, which I think I have been in.

This thread is cheering me up no end. I can't even remember what I was asking when it started, but I'm feeling much more cheerful about everything.

I agree that feckless spending isn't the answer (nor are other nazi policies, like murdering disabled people, racism, or homophobia).

But anyway WW2 causes were much more complicated than Nazi supposed anti-austerity (and they weren't anti-austerity, not really).

My point is that austerity, in modern times, in the UK, is a false economy. Something many economists, rightwing ones included, have said. George Osborne made massive cuts to the welfare state and public services. Yet he left the economy in more debt.

False economy means cuts people don't get timely and effective help, so end up in more need and for longer periods of time.

Some examples of the false economy, austerity, approach (all the below examples have had threads on here with people it's happened to):

Delayed healthcare. Sometimes extra delayed due to initial 'GP fobbing off'. So people end up more ill, and not only needing more and more costly healthcare but also unable to work. So they need benefits.

Punitive benefits system and not enough social housing. Both poverty and insecure unaffordable housing are interlinked with ill health (physical and mental). So people need more and more costly healthcare, and they need benefits.

Another issue linked to not enough social housing is that this is one of the biggest reasons for a high welfare benefits bill. More social housing would cost initially but significantly cut the benefits bill longer term.

Again wrt the lack of social housing. A woman posted a few weeks ago. She was fleeing DV with her child. She was going to have to give up her job and go to a refuge because there wasn't available social housing for her. So she'll need benefits.

Good and well-funded (and well managed) public services, supportive benefits system, more social housing, improved child support system, and job education and training opportunities aren't only the morally right thing to do. They're good economics.

I'd say ending the false economy approach is both left and rightwing.

To add. As you mention one of the Nazis main policies was 'lebensraum'. Based on their racist hate for Slavic people, they wanted to invade and take over the land of eastern European countries. Invading other countries isn't cheap. It's not anti-austerity.

Sorry for taking over the thread. It's an interesting discussion but I'll try to step back a bit to let others have their say.

In the UK the rise of the far right is down to the Tories who have consistently blamed the poor, sick, immigrants, basically those with the least power, for society's problems.

Instead of the responsible centre right government they were supposed to be they appeased the fringes of the party, gave in to populism and failed to do the job of running the country properly. All the while destroying themselves, our faith in democracy and the country as a whole.

Their destruction has left a lot of people politically homeless. Some will gravitate towards the established parties in the centre. Others, more right wing and partial to populism will head further right to Reform. And some are so disaffected or vulnerable to the populist lies trotted out by the right that they go even further to the likes of Patriotic Alternative.

This time round, far right rhetoric has crept in through the side door of populism.

I agree.