Labour and Pensioners

[Mycatsmudge]

So Labour has declared they will not increase taxes and NI on working people, but they need to raise money for their manifesto promises such as free breakfast clubs, more teachers, dentists etc. To help pay for it all would it be a good idea if they remove the triple lock on state pensions and make pensioners pay NI?

Ah but the pensioners had the advantages of cheap housing back then.
The lady you are replying to does not.
Whilst there are those that are coming up to retirement and still renting there are many that own their own house.
The obscene cost of housing is shafting the have nots, whilst those who own outright do not want the status quo of house prices interfered with unless it is to increase.
Just think how much money would be available if governments stopped interfering with their policies of keeping the prices continuing to increase.

@worrieddaughter97 You seem determined to ignore that generalisations ignore the less lucky.

You say You cannot punish the young for their sins of not being born during the baby boom.

Likewise you cannot punish those born during the baby boom who never escaped poverty.

They didn't because, you know, everyone has different life circumstances and 'boomers' are a wide and varied group often with almost nothing in common but age.

Not every so-called 'boomer' bought a house cheap or bought one at all. As you can see from the data I posted in previous posts.
inequalities within older generations are some of the most extreme in society.

Why are you so against helping everyone who needs it, regardless of age?

But many boomers did buy a house cheap and to add insult to injury also went into buy to let.

Boomers, like all generations, bought property at market value.
What would you rather they did, offered twice the price in case future generations were upset.

@IsEveryUserNameBloodyTaken

And that's relevant and helpful to the ones who didn't and who have been in poverty for most if not all of their lives, how?

Some, or even many, of a large group are ok so fuck the ones who aren't?

Who do you think the 'boomers' who did buy to let rented to? Not today's young who weren't born yet. It was their own peers. The poorer people of the same age group.

Why do you have a problem with the idea of ensuring that everyone in need whatever their age gets the help they need?

No but it’s got so way out of hand that it is a major obstacle now for younger people. Turning that around should younger buyers now not offer half the price in case older generations are upset.

I would charge capital gains on pension lump sums taken before 40 years of work

Why? It would generate no income because nobody would do it. You’d just have people going through the motions of work to avoid paying it. What a pointless exercise.

Actually it's an even bigger obstacle for older people. Those several million over 50s who're private renting.

Also most (apparently not all) people care about their relatives and are concerned about the housing issues. Older and younger relatives. So most older people who own want their kids and grandkids to have decent and affordable housing. Likewise most younger people care about their parents and grandparents having decent and affordable housing.

Yes there's a housing problem and more social housing is needed. For all who need it. Including older people in need.

It’s relevant to the young person that posted who can’t even afford to rent.
I don’t have a problem with everyone in need getting help.
Those who couldn’t afford to buy whatever age do need help but it should not be another hair-brained scheme by the government that will just increase property prices.

Those who couldn’t afford to buy whatever age do need help but it should not be another hair-brained scheme by the government that will just increase property prices.

Exactly - like the bloody proposal to raise the stamp duty point for first time buyers from £300k to £425k. That's just going to inflate hourse prices even more

I have a lot of sympathy for the younger poster; the point about people having time to get their act together is not a bad one.

What is the problem is how a lot of older women do not have pensions. I don’t mean the state, I mean their own personal one. And every woman does need one. The U.K. state pension is an actual ticket to poverty. Do not rely on it.

The problem is so many seem to think helping one generation should be at the expense of another. Usually pensioners!
Its like during covid and nhs basic health care….the older you are the less medical life giving support you are likely to receive. We rarely hear of young people being asked if they want a ‘do not resuscitate’ sign above their hospital beds…..for example.

Pensioners and older people should not be countries fall guy nor should they be constantly blamed for the state of the country and our welfare system.

Low births ( year on year since the boomer births ) and the large numbers of economically inactive are giving rise to low taxes.
So if everyone has lots of kids and everyone works there will be plenty of money to support those that need it.

@IsEveryUserNameBloodyTaken other 'boomers' being ok or doing well is not relevant to the 'boomers' who can't afford to rent.

I don't think it helps arguing though especially as I think we agree on the housing issues? I sympathise with the younger poster wanting affordable decent housing. However unlike, it seems with that poster, I also sympathise and care about older people needing affordable decent housing.

What you say below is 100% right. More social housing is the answer. As you say, UK definitely doesn't need or want another inflate the house prices scheme.
Those who couldn’t afford to buy whatever age do need help but it should not be another hair-brained scheme by the government that will just increase property prices.

In the 1980s / 90s I nor any of my friends ( all newly qualified architects ) could afford to buy.
I had to move to Kent out of London and buy my / our first property with my partner at age 33 ( he was older ).

My parents bought their first house in 1966 my mum was 34 and my dad 36.
My aunt and her husband were in their late 30s
Another uncle and his wife have never been able to afford
My cousins in their 50s all still rent as they could never afford to buy.

The scenario is not new. There are many people in all generations that struggled to buy or can never afford to.

The ageism on this thread is appalling

It’s a thread about pensioners, what do you expect when its subject is predicated on age? You’ve posted your fair share of ageism on it.

Yep.

Pre boomers even got massive discounts off their social housing when they wanted to buy it. Or their dc bought it! Very cheap route into housing and millions did it. Thanks to Thatcher for that. Then few more were built. The people I knew in rented could afford to buy but didn’t want to. Plenty rented because it suited them and not having to maintain a house. I’m nearly 70 and family members have done exactly this. Two teachers! Cheap housing area but chose not to buy. I worked with many who made the same decision. Many are not in poverty with final salary pensions. Paid for by the young poster. She won’t get that.

Neither will she get tax relief on a mortgage. We also had friends who bought 2 bed houses as a single person after about 3 years of work. Nurses, a teacher or two, planners, etc. It really wasn’t difficult and many aspire to this. Others didn’t. It was rarely money it was more about easily getting social housing and hanging on to it with no maintenance costs. It made it easier to have better cars and holidays.

So I do see some pensioner poverty but very little. It’s certainly a bigger issue for 60-65 age group who lost the chance of social homes that their parents had enjoyed. Obviously you cannot generalise but tax breaks and no uni loans and enough housing did make a difference to many. Also by 1980, 1 in 7 went to university. Many did day release for HE qualifications. We did have opportunities if we grabbed them.

We can’t give help to everyone that needs it when we are giving a huge tax break to rich pensioners and taxing them less than everyone else. This thread is about pensioners paying NI (or equivalent). I think they should and that there is no reason they should get a tax break on their income purely for being pensioners

It is not at all true that it would cost more to means test state pensions. State pensions are incredibly expensive and that’s mainly because they are universal. State pensions are about 10% OF ALL GOVERNMENT SPENDING. That’s more than the entire education budget just on state pensions.

we have to make choices when it comes to public spending 1 the pot is finite and if we spend on one thing then the funds are not available for another. We need to stop deluding ourselves about the cost of an aging society- unless we look at the costs honestly we can’t address them. Broadly a large part of our current issues are down to a lower proportion of working age people to pensioners due to demographic changes. We are still transferring wealth from the young to the old. Yet pensioners are the wealthiest demographic.

were talking on this thread about whether pensioners should continue to get tax breaks just for being pensioners. Whether there are relatively poor pensioners is irrelevant. That doesn’t mean they should get a tax break that others don’t

@User2460177

These sort of changes rarely effect the rich. It won't be "rich pensioners" who suffer. It will be the 'just about managing'. The ones not far above the threshold for pension credit with just a modest private pension.

Being pensioners is relevant. They're on a fixed (low) income. They're past the stage of being able to work. Some may still be good health enough to work but the older you are the more likely to experience health issues. Which often incurs extra costs. Less mobile, some are housebound, older people feel the cold more, and so on.

Not to mention employer age discrimination (and as there's only 916,000 job vacancies but over 1 million working age jobseekers, it would hardly help younger people if lots of pensioners had to compete with them for those jobs).

Unlike it seems here in the UK, the French young understand that any erosion of social security including pensions will impact them further down the line. As one young French person said in the article I posted earlier, once you start chipping away where does it end.

Wealthiest demographic, yes. If you generalise.

Generalisation means overlooking that
inequalities within older generations are some of the most extreme in society.

the cost of an aging society

Life expectancy is no longer increasing, and from what I understand it's actually starting to fall.

That said, I think it's an unpleasant dog whistle to talk about older people in terms of financial cost only. That sort of talk, together with the increasingly used phrase (not by you) of "the burden of an ageing population". Awful.

Most 'boomers' (and many Gen X too) left school at 15 or 16. They've worked for years and paid their way. They still pay contribute anyway. They purchase goods, helping to keep businesses afloat, and if they need care that's also providing employment to people. Especially welcome given there's fewer job vacancies than working age job seekers.

I said on another thread a few weeks ago. These Elderly Bashing sentiments have me and DH thinking we might as well do everything Bad when we hit 60 (or even 50). Drink loads, smoke, only eat junk food, stop exercising. Then we'll die of massive heart attacks so nobody can complain about the 'cost of an ageing population" (except our DC will be upset).

Finally finished my shift, will read the replies and respond tomorrow.