Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

General election 2024

Long-standing Conservative voters thread

474 replies

Katypp · 26/05/2024 10:31

Any one else who has - up to this point at least - been a Tory voter?
I have voted Conservative at every national election (I am late 50s). This one is probably the most likely to change. Purely because I think new blood would be a good idea. I live in a very Labour area and have never shared my colours with anyone from being in my early 20s.
Given the fact that the Tories usually win, I suspect there are a lot like me.
I know it's a big ask, but I hope thar this might be a sensible thread for other natural Tory voters to discuss the election and not be called names and shouted down like we are on every other thread.
If you are a Labour voter, please don't hijack the thread and tell us how wrong we are. There is free speech in the UK and we are just as entitled to hold our opinion as you are to hold yours.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Cooper77 · 18/06/2024 10:28

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 08:37

@Cooper77 I'm interested in your post on Scruton, I am a fan of his. But he was not a one Nation conservative he was a traditionalist and put an empasis on the importance of family policies and belonging. One nation don't do this and supports things like mass immigration which just cares about money not culture or community. And he was a fan of Thatcher who you have mischaracterised. I have read her book and she regretted that she didn't have time to build social policies and just financial ones as the country was in such a mess when she came in (very similar to now). She is always misrepresented by the left who are jealous that she had massive support from the working class and they don't.

I intensely disliked Thatcher. Perhaps it's unfair to judge her based on interviews, but she came across so badly – philistine, patronising and pretentious (oh god, that ridiculous accent). I preferred Edward Heath. Peter Ustinov recalled an evening he spent with Heath during which they did nothing but talk about art, music and literature. Heath showed him his antiques and rare books and never once mentioned politics. "Now that," said Ustinov, "is the kind of politician I trust." In other words, broad-minded and non-fanatical, a man with hidden depths.

I remember my grandfather (born 1922) saying that he'd never seen the people of this country change so much as they did under Thatcher. I grew up in Essex in the 1980s, the child of a traveling salesman, so I saw some of the worst products of that system. Economically, it works. It certainly generates more wealth than socialism. But that comes at a price. The kinds of people who thrive in a cut-throat, de-regulated economy are often the worst. You know, people who set up a firm installing windows, use the cheapest materials they can find, then fold up the business six months down the line. That winter, when the handles begin snapping off and the windows let in the cold, they're sunning themselves on an Italian beach.

The things I really care about – kindness, manners, art, beauty, etc – were not only irrelevant to a Thatcherite, they were obstacles. The true Thatcherite would bulldoze Durham Cathedral and replace it with a McDonalds if he could turn a profit. As for things like kindness, good manners, a sense of duty, etc, you must be joking. Ruthless aggression is what you need. The Sun newspaper was the perfect symbol of '80s Thatcherism – ignorant, crude, ugly, brash and foul.

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 10:39

No I think you have mischaracterised Thatcher. I can't remember where I've read but apparently she was really kind to the lowest employees in her office when she didn't need to be which is a mark of character (can imagine someone like Camerson treating them like s**t). Her accent was because the old Etonians looked down on her for being a woman and lower middle class so had to take elocution lessons. I do agree that her policies enabled people who think money is the only thing that matters but she wasn't like that and would not have bulldozed Cathedrals (she had a strong Christian belief apart from anything). People despise Thatcher for the tories who came after when she was highly competent and bares no relation to the incompetents running the country now.

BIossomtoes · 18/06/2024 10:52

She never had a single woman in her cabinet. She destroyed the manufacturing base of this country and decimated social housing. The state this country is in now is as a direct result of her tenure in Downing Street.

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 10:52

@Cooper77 I couldn't agree more- I also think Sunaks obsession with maths sums it up - never mind kids getting into drama or playing an instrument- compulsive maths to 17 (when a calculator can do much of it beyond the age of 12) that's where it's at

We live up near Bath uni- so I'm often on the bus with students- a few months ago I listened in fascination to a bunch of overseas students (all boys) - all they were going on about was - it doesn't matter about standards or service , my dad says 'itsall about the margin' - clearly Tory MPs in the making if they stay in UK. I wonder they look to the dog eat dog attitudes in USA rather than Europe .

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 10:53

@BIossomtoes awful woman- 'no such thing as society, only the individual- ' and that started the rot!!

BIossomtoes · 18/06/2024 10:56

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 10:53

@BIossomtoes awful woman- 'no such thing as society, only the individual- ' and that started the rot!!

Indeed. I still get angry every time I think of her and how she held the country in her thrall. And how different things might have been if she hadn’t been so shortsighted.

Cooper77 · 18/06/2024 11:28

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 00:05

@Cooper77 one of my big problems with current conservatives besides corruption and the obvious things is that I don't think many of them actually interested remotely in culture and creative industry - be it books, art, music , buildings

I agree. But whereas a lot of centre-right people are indifferent to the arts, the left are often destructive. I can't put into words the hatred I feel for some of these smug, bullying woke idiots. You know, the kinds of people who think the National Gallery should be closed down because it's a "neo-colonial space," or that paintings should be removed because they're too 'Eurocentric'. It doesn't occur to them that many people of Asian or African heritage like the National Gallery and find places like the Tate or the Guildhall beautiful and uplifting. They're more interested in the beauty of a Monet painting than they are in the fact that it was painted by a Frenchman. The bullying, patronizing, controlling nature of the left takes my breath away.

The similarities between the woke left and Orwell's 1984 are staggering. You get the same ridiculous euphemisms – 'de-colonising the libraries,' for example, or removing 'hate speech' from classic novels. Their new target is the literary canon. Harold Bloom warned about this fifty years ago, but no one listened. If they get their way, great writers will be removed, not because they're bad but because of who they are. And other writers will be added not because they're any good but because they tick certain boxes.

I had a British-Indian friend, for example, who loved Jane Austen and the Brontes. On several occasions left-wing idiots told her that this proved she'd been 'colonised'. No, it proved that THEY were in the grips of an idiotic cult. Thankfully my friend had the intelligence to laugh at them. She also read Indian writers, of course, and even introduced them to me, but she did so because she liked their books, not because they were Indian.

But the thing that really infuriates me is that I don't believe those on the left really believe in half the things they say. Some people are spiteful, destructive and hate-filled by nature. They also like attention. Through radical left politics they get to satisfy all that. And the cherry on the cake is that they can feel morally superior while doing so.

pointythings · 18/06/2024 11:37

Well, that makes everyone hateful then, doesn't it, @Cooper77 ? Because the right are so kind about benefit claimants, asylum seekers, foreigners, single parents, LGBT people...

And that is an extreme statement, just like your whole rant above. On this thread, can we at least acknowledge that there are unpleasant extremists on both sides of the political spectrum, and that moderates on both sides need to be better than that? So far, nobody on this thread has descended to smears and sneers against 'the left' or 'the right' because we recognise that neither is a homogeneous mass. Please try to do the same; this thread is for civil political discussion and as such is rare and precious.

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 13:46

@Cooper77 yep I agree- far right and far left are very very close in many ways- very much 'closed minded and often single issue' I guess I'm centre left but maybe more to the centre- I like balance, I like business, I'm not a Brexiter and I like kindness and fairness and the arts and I don't like lazy buggers regardless of whether they think politically like Alf Garnett or Owen Jones. I'm not racist but nor am I pro immigration for the sake of it- hence the EU worked well for me as it worked both ways -

In all fairness I think both Starmer and Davey probably do think a lot like me too and it won't suit the far left mentality -

A lot of people have become very polarised - whilst not realising that no party offers solutions to all demographics- and in an instant.

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 13:50

@pointythings as I've said- I don't like extremism on either side of the political spread - I find the far right dangerous and divisive and anti anyone not lapping up the Mail/express and GB News- usually extremely self interested too rather than looking at the wider picture- whereas those who lean to the far left are often divisive too but in different ways,

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 13:55

Here is mrs thatchers quotehttps://newlearningonline.com/new-learning/chapter-4/neoliberalism-more-recent-times/margaret-thatcher-theres-no-such-thing-as-society she is constantly misquoted and this makes perfect sense to me, she was saying we all owe responsibility to each other and govt is the people. And the state we are in now is because of Blair and what came afterwards (Cameron said he was heir to Blair), Mrs T created the golden economy of the 90s which was inherited (and trashed) by Blair and others. Banking crisis was made worse by them blair,cameron sunak etc. doing massive quantative easing and not holding the bankers to account (in US bankers went to prison). We still haven't recovered from that thanks to their ineptitude, Mrs T believed in sound money so wouldn't have done what they did.

Margaret Thatcher: There’s No Such Thing as Society - New Learning Online

https://newlearningonline.com/new-learning/chapter-4/neoliberalism-more-recent-times/margaret-thatcher-theres-no-such-thing-as-society

pointythings · 18/06/2024 13:55

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 13:50

@pointythings as I've said- I don't like extremism on either side of the political spread - I find the far right dangerous and divisive and anti anyone not lapping up the Mail/express and GB News- usually extremely self interested too rather than looking at the wider picture- whereas those who lean to the far left are often divisive too but in different ways,

I agree with you, but @Cooper77 's post was exclusively slating 'the left', without any distinction, as if we are all the same. The right was not subject to any similar treatment. That is both incorrect* *and not in the spirit of the thread.

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 13:58

And makes me laugh when Mrs t blamed for social housing she hasn't been in power for 34 years ffs it's like blaming Churchill for problems in the 80s!

BIossomtoes · 18/06/2024 14:18

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 13:58

And makes me laugh when Mrs t blamed for social housing she hasn't been in power for 34 years ffs it's like blaming Churchill for problems in the 80s!

Of course it’s not. She opened up right to buy with ridiculous discounts and didn’t allow local authorities to replace the housing stock they sold off. The roots of the current housing crisis lie solidly in her policies which are the reason there’s far too little social housing.

Katypp · 18/06/2024 14:18

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 13:58

And makes me laugh when Mrs t blamed for social housing she hasn't been in power for 34 years ffs it's like blaming Churchill for problems in the 80s!

I actually have a sneaky admiration for Mrs T - at least she knew her mind and refused to be shifted from it, unlike today's politicians who seem to be constantly bowing to one pressure group after another.
However, I do believe that the crisis in housing today is rooted in Mrs T's policy of selling off council houses, which should never have happened imo.

OP posts:
Katypp · 18/06/2024 14:19

BIossomtoes · 18/06/2024 14:18

Of course it’s not. She opened up right to buy with ridiculous discounts and didn’t allow local authorities to replace the housing stock they sold off. The roots of the current housing crisis lie solidly in her policies which are the reason there’s far too little social housing.

We posted at the same time!

OP posts:
BIossomtoes · 18/06/2024 14:20

Katypp · 18/06/2024 14:19

We posted at the same time!

And almost the same thing! Who says there’s no common ground? 😉

CaveMum · 18/06/2024 14:26

If anyone is inclined I recommend listening to the Evil Genius episode on Margaret Thatcher.

If you don’t know the premise of the show, it is to take a historical figure (mostly real people but a handful of fictional characters too) and debate whether they are “Evil” or “Genius”. They look at all sides of the person and in a lot of cases they turn up something surprising that makes you look at someone slightly differently than you did before.

It is a comedy show and lots of swearing, so not one to listen to with the kids around!

For balance they have also done other politicians including Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon, Winston Churchill and JFK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p066l5db?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Evil Genius with Russell Kane - Margaret Thatcher - BBC Sounds

Russell and his panel weigh up the Iron Lady. The debate involves hairspray and ninjas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p066l5db?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 14:33

Ffs govts since 1990 were quite at liberty to build more social housing! In the late 90s when there was plenty of money and the population started exploding would have been ideal. And as my mum and dad bought our council house in the 80s I saw what happened first hand. Selling council houses didn't actually create less housing it just moved into private hands so people took more pride in their environment, the problem is affordability of all housing which has happened from Blair onwards.

Katypp · 18/06/2024 14:50

Northernnature · 18/06/2024 14:33

Ffs govts since 1990 were quite at liberty to build more social housing! In the late 90s when there was plenty of money and the population started exploding would have been ideal. And as my mum and dad bought our council house in the 80s I saw what happened first hand. Selling council houses didn't actually create less housing it just moved into private hands so people took more pride in their environment, the problem is affordability of all housing which has happened from Blair onwards.

How can selling off over 2m houses and not replacing them not lead to a housing crisis?
You are right, there has been ample time since to build more, but the fact that we were starting from -2m is somewhat of a challenge I would say.
I don't disagree with people buying council houses entirely, but allowing such massive discounts was ridiculous imo.

OP posts:
Northernnature · 18/06/2024 14:53

We weren't starting from -2m there were the same no.of house just in different ownership. And the population was very stable in thatchers day but I agree govts since then should have built more social housing.

BIossomtoes · 18/06/2024 14:54

Katypp · 18/06/2024 14:50

How can selling off over 2m houses and not replacing them not lead to a housing crisis?
You are right, there has been ample time since to build more, but the fact that we were starting from -2m is somewhat of a challenge I would say.
I don't disagree with people buying council houses entirely, but allowing such massive discounts was ridiculous imo.

I couldn’t agree more. If the proceeds from the sell off had been ringfenced to build more social housing it might have been a halfway sensible policy. That’s the trouble with political bribes, they’re rarely thought through or farsighted.

AnnieSnap · 18/06/2024 19:40

Cooper77 · 17/06/2024 23:48

I’d describe myself as a moderate, one nation conservative. I actually prefer the term ‘Conservative-centrist’, or even ‘red Tory’. The core reason I’m ‘conservative’ (I mean in temperament) is that I distrust grand, dreamy idealism. Things that sound great in a sixth form common room often cause chaos in the real world. I’m a moderate conservative because I want sensible, realistic grown ups running the country. I have met very few left-wing people I respected. Frankly, many seem like overgrown adolescents. You know, people who never grew out of the adolescent rebel stage. Or there’s the bitter, hate-filled sort who want to upset people for the sake of it (Frankie Boyle is a good example of that type). Or they’re show offs who see radical politics as a way of getting attention (Russell Brand is a good example of that type).

I’m also conservative in a broader sense, in that I want to conserve things that are worth conserving - beautiful buildings, high culture, a literary canon, etc. And I want to conserve those things for everyone, not just a minority.

In general, I follow people like Roger Scruton. He was in Paris in 1968 during the riots, and describes walking the streets and talking to the young students. When he asked them why they wanted a revolution, all he got back was a load of pseudo-intellectual Marxist gibberish. As he watched, he realised that most of them weren’t really interested in politics at all. They were just enjoying the adrenaline rush and the chance to smash things up. I suppose what I’m saying is that I believe in order and civilisation. Such things are precious and fragile. They don’t come naturally to us. By nature we’re violent, restless, and irrational. Anyone who believes humans are basically good and that we can build (i.e impose) a utopia isn’t just naive - they’re dangerous.

I disliked Margaret Thatcher, however. She wasn’t a conservative at all. She was a free market fanatic. Her supporters had no interest in conserving beautiful things, and no belief in duty or service or good manners or any of the other virtues I associate with conservatism. All that mattered was money.

I am a Labour voter myself and often wonder how otherwise reasonable, intelligent people identify Tory values. I enjoyed reading your views Cooper. Clearly, you and I value many of the same things. The Conservative leadership of the past (nearly) 14-years has all been about making the rich richer and, if necessary in so doing, putting a torch to everything else (with the exception of the short period under Theresa May, who got stuff wrong, but who I believe is a decent woman). The policies acting out this mindset have worsened dramatically since Johnson was elected and the situation has worsened exponentially since then. The hypocrisy, sleaze, greed and lack of accountability has been outrageous in recent years.

Given your moderate views, who will you vote for in this election?

Crikeyalmighty · 18/06/2024 19:57

@AnnieSnap yep I agree- and vote Labour or Lib Dem depending where I live- basically whoever keeps the Tory out- I share a lot of @Cooper77 values too - as you say the problem is the current Tory's are a different breed altogether-

pointythings · 18/06/2024 20:06

I don't even think we have Tories any more, not in the old school one nation sense. We have Bluekip and Reform. The UK needs a decent centre-right party (and I say this as someone who leans left).