Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Gardening

Find tips and tricks to make your garden or allotment flourish on our Gardening forum.

Total incompetent - need advice on trees and/or climbers

13 replies

Bubbleswithsqueak · 25/02/2023 12:44

Our house has a teeny tiny back garden/yard, about 7m square. We back on to the carpark of a large building, which used to be screened by a hedge, but that has just been removed (by them). Along the boundary with the neighbour (to the right on the diagram) is horrifically tatty trellis covered in ivy which we are removing. The gap between our house and next door is less than 4m, and we both have windows that look directly into one another. The boundary all the way around the garden is an 80cm stone wall. North of England, inland, village - so rural but quite sheltered spot.

The garden/yard itself is half grass/disgusting dog toilet, half tatty old flagstones. After the summer (when we have some money), we will be laying flags across the whole thing and making it a yard with lots of pots (I don't mind watering).

I am not a keen gardener - I hate nothing more than weeding a flower bed. But I have a DH who is more than happy to do pruning etc. I really dislike industrial landscaping plants like laurel or pyracantha. Don't like dark green shiny leaves. Much prefer lighter stuff with smaller leaves, cottage garden-y type stuff.

What I want:
Wall A: Some pleached trees (just learned this word!). From my research so far I'm thinking hornbeam? I would like olive, but I'm not sure it would survive a hard winter up here. Any other suggestions?

Wall B: south facing, will get lots of sun. Plan is to replace the trellis. Some kind of climber with some interest - flowers, leaves, fruit, whatever.

Wall C: something 'espalier' (another new word!), about 8 ft high. Although this will be screening the neighbour's windows, it's not a room they use a lot, and I don't want to block all their light. It doesn't need to be dense - the forest of ivy that was there previously was dreadful. Our house blocks a lot of the light here, so I need something that will tolerate quite a bit of shade. It doesn't get much direct light in winter, and probably only a couple of hours in summer.

Ideas for A, B or C? Obligatory diagram:

Total incompetent - need advice on trees and/or climbers
OP posts:
SarahAndQuack · 25/02/2023 13:40

Forgive the question, but are you sure you won't end up with drainage issues if you turn the whole thing into a yard? IIRC you're not allowed to direct water onto neighbouring properties and I'd have thought an entirely paved space might well do this. Also, are you planning to have the plants in pots on the flagstones, or in the ground with flagstones stopping just before? While olives will be happy in a pot pretty much indefinitely, lots of things will eventually die because they're not really suited to it.

Aside from that: olives will cope, I think - they get dry in winter so worth watching out for that. It's often the dryness in winter that kills trees, not the cold per se. But hornbeam is really lovely and will also be enormously cheaper - you can buy bare root hornbeam quite easily; if your 'north of England' happens to be North Yorkshire I can PM you a good supplier. Indeed I also know where I'd buy pleached and trained trees. Again, these are pricey unless you plan to train them yourself, which is time-consuming. Is there a reason you want the espalier in the shade? The thing is that espalier-training makes a tree work quite hard, and shade does the same thing, so things that aren't very tough might struggle. Your classic choices here would be your traditional ugly landscaping dark green things.

A - if you like hornbeam, copper beech maybe also fun? Or a fancy holly (you can get a lovely one with chestnut-ish leaves that can be pleached. It does have shiny green leaves but just worth a mention:https://www.gardenersworld.com/plants/ilex-x-koehneana-chestnut-leaf/. Or you can pleach ornamental cherries and apples - they would be really pretty.

B - this sounds lovely! Depends what you like really. A pretty evergreen climber is trachelospermum jasminoides, which has leaves that turn red in autumn and scented white flowers. It will cope in a pot.

C - maybe a nicer ivy? There are some really pretty ones. www.rhs.org.uk/plants/articles/graham-rice/shrubs-and-climbers/10-agm-hollies-and-ivies

Bubbleswithsqueak · 25/02/2023 15:03

Drainage - we will build drainage channels into the paving and direct to our main drain, with the whole thing sloping towards the drain. We have several dogs, so regular power washing of the flags will be a must.

All the plants will be planted in the ground, with the paving stopping just before. The drain is in the bottom left corner of the diagram, so dog pissy water will be running away from the planting, and regular watering will be easy.

A: I'm going to struggle to choose between olive, hornbeam and copper beech, I think! Good to know that olive isn't quite as difficult as I assumed, and am happy to water regularly. We will be buying the expensive pleached and trained trees - we don't need very many, and I want to get the horrible view of the carpark, bins and building behind us covered as quickly as possible. Please can I have your supplier recommendation?!

B: LOVE the jasmine - that's a definite yes.

C: There are a couple of nicer ivys there, but they're not my favourite (and take over so quickly). Any other climber suggestions that will grow in the shade? We can have trellis instead of espalier. I just want something that's not quite as imposing as ivy on trellis cos the space is so small and it will loom...

OP posts:
SarahAndQuack · 25/02/2023 15:50

Oh, that sounds as if it will work perfectly! I do get the need for power washing.

I have olives and they came through this very cold winter just fine. A very old tree might benefit from being wrapped up against a very heavy frost, but younger ones probably not so much.

I should have said earlier - your go-to place for advice is the RHS website. Here's their recommendations for climbers for shade: www.rhs.org.uk/plants/types/climbers/for-shade/twining-climbers]]

I have to say, I'm slightly unsure how some of those would do in such very deep shade, but worth a try.

I will PM about my supplier.

Honeyroar · 25/02/2023 17:01

I’m amazed people have olives growing well. I lived in Tuscany and they had an olive grove. Quite a few trees snapped due to frost.

SarahAndQuack · 25/02/2023 17:29

Olives are hardy down to about minus 10 (some people would say even minus 15). Old trees are vulnerable because they tend to fissure, and if moisture gets inside them and freezes, it can snap them because it expands. That's not an issue with temperature, but with the way old olive trees have developed. You shouldn't find olives don't survive the kinds of temperatures you regularly get in a UK winter.

Beebumble2 · 25/02/2023 17:52

Have you thought of leaving some of the paving slabs out and having pockets of low growing plants? This would not only help the drainage but also be good for wildlife.
Clematis are pretty climbers with many varieties, also evergreen winter flowering ones.
Rowans are pretty, small trees with blossom and berries. Amelanchier are also beautiful shrubs that can be grown as small trees, they have all year round interest with pretty leaves, blossom and berries.

Bubbleswithsqueak · 25/02/2023 19:48

Unfortunately the low growing plants get destroyed by the dogs...

At the moment I'm thinking either olive or hornbeam for A; the trachelospermum jasminoides for the sunny trellis B, and Camellia × saluenensis 'Bow Bells' on a trellis or espalier for the shady bit. Think our soil is acidic (but will check).

Any definite no nos there?

OP posts:
MereDintofPandiculation · 25/02/2023 19:59

Not a climber but it can be trained up a trellis - winter flowering jasmine. Yellow flowers all through winter, very uplifting

SarahAndQuack · 25/02/2023 20:06

I would be worried the camellia buds would get frosted TBH. I might be worrying over-much - do you notice how much frost lingers there in winter? If it's warmer from the house, it might not be an issue.

Seaitoverthere · 25/02/2023 22:39

Climbing hydrangea copes with shade.

Paranoidandroidmarvin · 27/02/2023 13:35

I have tried three clematis and have all died. But the jasmine grew so quick!!!
I have an olive tree in full sun and it has been fine all winter but I’m in the south east.

CatherinedeBourgh · 27/02/2023 22:49

My favourite climbers for shade are Parthenocissus henryana (a kind of boston ivy with lovely veined leaves) and rosa Mme Alfred Carriere (divine scent).

For a pleached tree in the sun I would go for a fruit tree. Pretty blossom and some fruit.

Bubbleswithsqueak · 28/02/2023 09:56

@MereDintofPandiculation I think I will go for a jasmine of some sort (or maybe a mix) in the sunnier spot. The winter flowering one I think would go well in the bit of B nearest the house where there is partial shade, with the trachelospermum jasminoides for the sunny bit.

I think I might try Clematis montana var. rubens 'Elizabeth' for most of C, with Parthenocissus henryana (thanks @CatherinedeBourgh !) in the very shady section at the back. If the clematis dies, then the ivy can just be left to cover the gaps! I think the hydrangea and the roses will be too wide for the space and make it difficult to walk down the path.

So now olive or hornbeam trees.... I'm leaning towards the safer hornbeam, but our view is mostly brown, and a bit of green for the winter wouldn't go amiss...

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page