Apprenticeship (Level 7 but no degree) or University?

[frowner]

Just wondering if anyone could share their knowledge or experiences please. My daughter has been offered a level 7 solicitor apprenticeship via Damar training (2 year level 3 paralegal then 3 year solicitor including SQE but no degree). She has also been offered a place on an LLB course at Warwick, any advice on the best route? Much appreciated

One is a job with training, the other is a degree with no guarantee of a job. They are very different choices for a young person. Warwick is a great university and no doubt she will have a lovely time there. She will also have truckloads of debt.

What does your daughter want to do?

If she is genuinely torn she could start the job and leave after 1-2 years to go to university.

I agree with @AlphaAppleRight now most graduates are struggling to get jobs and it’s not easy to get onto a good apprenticeship. I’d go for the apprenticeship.

If your daughter wants a uni qualification later, she could probably get onto a Masters degree on the basis of prior knowledge, experience and training (assuming she completes the apprenticeship). (And yes, I know that Level 7 is already PG level).

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. She is swaying towards the apprenticeship but is concerned that it does not result in a degree, so if she doesn't pass the SQE she will come away with a level 3 paralegal qualification whereas if she goes to university she will have the degree to fall back on if unsuccessful at the SQE, so she is torn.

The other thing to consider is her maturity and how much she wants the student/uni lifestyle. If she is happy to skip the whole halls, societies and networking then the apprenticeship is the best bet. But if she’d always be worried that she had missed out on the undergrad experience then she should go to Warwick.

My DC are chalk and cheese. One HAD to go to uni mainly for FOMO but also for the love of their subject. The other is an introvert and happy to go the apprenticeship route, live at home and earn money.

Two great options for her and no wrong choice, just different paths

@frowner Does the company she is working for look good? How big and what area of expertise. Back street, high street or national? You have quoted the training company which isn’t the actual job. Is the work as broad as she might reasonably get after the degree? Of course nothing is guaranteed with a degree now. but what quality of work will she get?

The apprenticeship rules have changed around L7 where they must go to school leavers, not adult employees. She does need to think about whether she’s ready for work and, if she wanted the Bar, she’s excluded herself with the apprenticeship. Warwick is a very good law school.

If you have a level 7 qualification you have more than an undergraduate degree. Within an apprenticeship the goal is that you have the same knowledge, you have just acquired it a different way. I assume for law it would still require book learning. I don’t know if it would be less broad an experience but it would need to be sufficiently broad to meet the L7 exam requirements.

I think the issue isn’t the degree itself, because L7 qualified is always going to be better than L6. It is about the overall experience, and the ways of learning. You mentioned if she failed the final exams she would have nothing. If she failed her final exams at Uni the same principle applies.

There’s a lot of law graduates with no jobs. Grab that apprenticeship with both hands. Can always do a degree later if for some reason she feels she needs it.

Not sure how something can be leel 7 and not be a postgraduate level qualification? I run apprenticeship programmes and that’s confusing me!

My dc did an apprenticeship and deferred his uni place. He got his professional qualification.

If she gets the qualification, then that will stand her in good place instead of the degree, plus she have the work experience on her cv.

The key point is that the qualification gained via a L7 apprenticeship can be the equivalent of a master's degree or could be a masters degree run within the L7 framework.

Professional qualifications such as those in accountancy and law are overseen by the relevant professional bodies and the taught aspects delivered by non-university organisations who specialise in these areas.

The student in question has the choice of a L7 pathway, equivalent to a masters, which runs alongside structured paid employment or a law degree, equivalent to L6, which perhaps keeps more (non-legal or specialist legal) career options open but the very real risk of not securing an attractive career pathway at all.

L7 apprenticeships for school leavers are relatively rare, and particularly so in law. If the poster's daughter has secured one then she has convinced her future employer of her relative maturity, work ethic and ambition against probably stiff competition. It is worth bearing that in mind when considering whether the SQE exams will be too much, when the time comes.

@PerpetualOptimist L7 apprenticeships, from 1 Jan 26 are only available to young people aged 16-21. So degree holders and school leavers in the main. Existing older employees are now excluded.

Quite right and helpful additional point to make - thanks.

@frownermy dd finished her A levels last year and had a place at Bristol to Economics and Apprenticeship to complete her ACA no degree but is also a level 7 - supposedly equivalent to a Masters she has been told by her employer- plus a professional qualification. She decided to take the apprenticeship and defer the uni place, to September 2026.

At this moment she believes she has made the right decision - no debt and has a job. I won’t lie the apprenticeship is hard- they treat you the same as a graduate.

We often have discussions about this and what you would advise others and her answer is…if you are someone who is fomo then stick to Uni since she has had to make a conscious effort to keep in touch with her uni friends - which was initially hard plus it can be lonely doing apprenticeship so she has to put herself out there and make friends.

Happy to answer any other questions - just PM me…but let me know if you do..sorry I don’t seem to get alerts .

Good luck with her decision and a lovely place to be.

@frowner L7 is indeed post graduate level. This is very normal for some professional apprenticeships like Law and Accountancy. My DD1 did a L7 accountancy apprenticeship as a school leaver and because it leads to a higher qualification (ACA) no undergraduate degree is necessary.
They’re not offered at L6 (degree) because the professional exams that are needed to practice law / accountancy and thus register with the professional bodies are at a higher post grad level. They don’t get a degree per se because they get the professional qualification at L7 which most ppl do after their undergraduate degree. For example for law they’d do LLB (or history degree or some other undergrad degree) then the SQE; for accountancy they’d do the ACA after their undergraduate degree. Don’t let the lack of a degree put her off. She will be professionally qualified AND have a ton of work experience. If she wants to be a solicitor then this is an amazing offer but if she wants to be a barrister then this wouldn’t be the best route as she’d need a pillage & bar exams etc rather than SQE.

Ugh that should say pupillage.

She won’t fail the SQE. The fact she’s secured a L7 law apprenticeship speaks volumes. She probs needs to trust herself & her abilities. It won’t be a walk in the park but I imagine she’s a very capable young lady. Good luck to her, whatever she decides to do !

Thank you so much for all your thoughts and knowledge and apologies for the late response. This is our eldest child so we are learning as we go along. My daughter is leaning towards the apprenticeship. She is quite mature, she has a part-time job at the moment and if she were to go to uni has opted to stay at home and commute so is not worried about missing out on the uni lifestyle, much like @KitchenDancefloor she is more of a introvert. @MeetMeOnTheCorner , the company looks good but we are not really knowledgeable on that front. It specialises in one area only and is a small firm, that's useful to know about the Bar. @phyllidafosset I think our concern was more if she were unsuccessful with the SQE she would not have a degree either, whereas if she followed the postgraduate route and did the SQE after a degree she would still come away with the degree, sorry I don't think I've explained that very well at all. That's really interesting @JulietteHasAGun I am not knowledgeable on the employment rates for law graduates. @keepswimming38 I think it's more likely the way I've explained it as I'm trying to get my head around it all, it is a Level 7 if you get all the way through and pass the SQE which forms part of the Level 7 qualification, if that isn't passed you come away with a Level 3 paralegal qualification only (some other firms seem to offer an apprenticeship that incorporates an LLB Degree but this one doesn't). Thanks @Silverbirchleaf it is interesting to hear from some personal experiences as we don't know anyone else that has followed this path. @PerpetualOptimist thank you for your insight, you are right, the application process was extremely competitive. The SQE is an unknown, from our research it appears tough but she is extremely hard working and focused and hopefully the apprentishio will be all about preparation for these exams. @Blubell46 , thank you for sharing your daughter's journey and advice, also for the offer of answering any questions that's very kind. @NotDonna you've explained the Level 7 far more clearly than myself, I'm guessing that your daughter feels she made the right decision also? Yes, the barrister route seems to be the one thing that is not an option if following the apprenticeship route. You are right she is doubting herself, as I'm sure you've been through with your daughter these are big decisions to make at a young age, but she has a strong work ethic and will give it 100%. Thanks again all and sorry for such a long reply, I just wanted to acknowledge all of your helpful and insightful responses. I think on balance that given she is not one to experience fomo the apprenticeship path could be a great start to her career.

@frowner One area of law from day 1 will pigeonhole her. How does she acquire the 7 foundation law subjects without a degree?

@MeetMeOnTheCorner the firm specialises in commercial property law, I had assumed that the Level 7 training course will give her the knowledge required in the 7 foundation law subjects but will have a closer read of everything.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner she will attend blocks of study, do an awful lot of personal study and take exams. But it’s something she may want to ask about @frowner - does she have any study time to prep for exams. I’m wondering if it’s a corporate law firm as they seem to be the ones offering the majority of apprenticeships. Regardless, is the area of law offered by the firm an area she is interested in? The downside of my DDs apprenticeship was the whole 4 yrs was in audit. This is the norm though, including grads. DD hasn’t found audit particularly inspiring but was willing to suck it up and move on after qualifying. Also bear in mind that she maybe the only apprentice at the firm. Despite DD being at a Big4 there was only one other apprentice in her city with no more ahead of her (years above etc) and none afterwards. There was a cohort of around 30 that started at the same time and attended the induction together but were spread across the country. So although a self starter and not worried about fomo of university, it’s quite nice if there’s at least one other to confide in and who ‘gets it’.

@frowner cross post!

Hi, neither of my children went to uni. One went into apprenticeship and the other straight out to work. Both got high level professional qualifications through work, all paid for, and are high earners in great jobs. Their peers all paying 3-400 per month in student loans. It doesn’t seem to matter to anyone they don't have degrees. It’s a no brainer for me. Those three years come at a very high price if they need to take out the loans

@NotDonna they give 1 day a week off for study and it is an area she is particularly interested in. We are learning ourselves as it this is all new to us so it has and continues to raise lots of questions for us, we want to support our daughter but feel a little out of our depth. That's an interesting point to raise, there are other apprenticeships on the same pathway but two years ahead and another will be starting at the same time.

@BrightHedgehog thank you for sharing, it is really interesting to hear so many recent personal experiences and perspectives.