3 or 4 A levels

[ALevelChoices]

My DS is doing his GCSEs and trying to decide which A levels to choose. He will do maths and further maths as he loves maths and plans to study it to degree level. His next favourite subject is Physics but I worry there will be a big overlap so the top universities might not see this as three separate a levels iyswim?
So my question is whether good predicted grades at these three a levels would collect him offers from decent universities or whether he would need to do another subject?
Then there is the issue of step papers and other extended learning which I know nothing about.

3 and an EPQ to show some breadth? Universities really like the EPQ- some even give a lower offer if distinction at EPQ is included.

I'd say those subjects are perfect for maths. Have DC who have just applied for entry 2024. In my experience, unis won't see it as too much overlap. FM is the most important A level and definitely don't drop it. Both of my DC have predicted A star in FM and have had offers from top unis but it doesn't guarantee anything as most applicants at top courses at top unis have straight 9s and straight A star predictions. STEP is sat alongside A levels. If doing 3 A levels and DS loves maths, then it should be fine. Does your DS do add maths for GCSE? Just go for it and good luck.

He wasn’t able to do additional maths gcse at his school , he would’ve jumped at the chance.
What do step and EPQ involve, I am completely new to all this?

I think with FM you may need a 4th for competitive courses.

I would only do EPQ if either (1) the uni your DS wants to apply to values EPQ highly and may offer reduced grades and/or still offer you even if you don't make your offer grades. This would include e.g. Exeter, Southhampton etc; or (2) your DS really wants to explore an area of interest outside of A level syllabus and it also becomes a useful super-curricular for your personal statement [appreciating that for your year, they might not need to write a PS for UCAs applications]. Both my DC did EPQs and loved it for its own intellectual challenge and learnt heaps of new skills along the way.
You only need to do STEP if the uni you are applying to, requires it as part of the application process, eg Cambridge. I would start preparing for STEP summer hols between Y12 and 13.

Only 4?

Is it even possible to do 28 A-levels - and what's the cost? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68319370

My DC did EPQ during L6 and it involved lots of research and logging/analysis of that research. It included writing an extended essay and also a powerpoint presentation to a panel at the end with 20 minutes of Q&A.

Some people will say to do 4. My son started with Maths, FM, Computer science and physics - wanted to do ComSci degree. Dropped physics at the end of first year of sixth form - before he did, he contacted Oxford and Imperial and asked if this would disadvantage him, they said no. Ended up applying to Cambridge whilst just doing maths, FM, CS and got an offer.

Not all degree courses are interested in breadth. Some just want you to be really good at what you're doing.

General advice is to start with M, FM and 2 more. Then drop one of the non-Maths ones in year 13. That then gives them the option of changing their plans and dropping FM if they find FM too hard.

@titchy 's advice is good. I have DC who have taken FM and it took them a while to really get FM under their belts. They were really glad they had the safety blanket of that 4th A level. One did Maths, FM, Physics and Geog. The Geog gave some relief to back-to-back equations and the NEA component (20% of the total marks) was a kind of mini-EPQ. Does your DS have a favoured subject that could run alongside Maths, FM and Physics?

I don’t think there is any danger of him not managing further maths. I and lots of others in the family have maths degrees and he has always found school maths ridiculously easy. I get messages complaining he isn’t doing any homework but he rarely gets less than 98% in tests. He will obviously have to work to get good grades at a level but thus far he has sailed through without any effort.
There are other subjects he is predicted 9 at gcse, French and the other sciences. I am nervous of French as I have heard this is an a level lots of native speakers take which skews the higher marks. He could do biology or chemistry but maybe it would be better to do an EPQ.
I just can’t get my head around a maths based EPQ.

French is tricky.

Plenty of maths based EPQs.

Think applied maths rather than necessarily pure.

He could do some statistical modelling of something, or if physics is his third do some experiments and use stats in the write up,

If he is looking towards a physics degree CS may be helpful

What about Economics as a 4th?

I don't know much about EPQs but there is a lot of maths in coding/cryptology such as use of prime numbers etc etc.

A lot to be said starting with 4 and dropping one if needed. Or an EPQ. 4th could be anything really, though another science, or economics or computing would fit well if interested.

Doing an EPQ when you do non essay subjects is really useful IMO. It made mine realise that writing a research piece is very different from Eng lang GCSE!
I would say that he should do a 4th and see how it goes, drop it if it's too much. Comp sci would go well and is definitely easier than maths or physics. Economics is quite mathsy and could be another good option. What does he want to do after his degree?

It’s a shame they don’t seem to do AS levels anymore as then you would get some credit for the one year 4th subject.

At the moment to wants to become an actuary but that may change.

Ps I found A level maths and FM a walk in the park back in the 80s. Massively struggled with degree maths, and only survived because I chose 3rd year options that didn't build on 2nd year. Should have switched to computing after year 1.

Computer science is a good idea actually. I’ve forgotten it as he wanted to do it at gcse but it was in the same option block as French. I suspect it could be a useful area if he does become an actuary.

Maths, FM and physics are perfect. Chemistry or Comp Sci or Economics would make a good choice for a 4th A level. Chemistry keeps options open for a lot of other science degrees, Comp Sci if a Comp Sci degree might be an option he is interested in, Economics opens doors to other degrees too. I would pick any of those over French, unless he is bilingual. A lot of the top grades in modern languages go to native speakers.

Have you talked to the 6th form he is going to? I'm sure they will be able to advise. The EPQ doesn't have to be maths related, it can be on anything. If he has a uni course in mind, look at the entry requirements. Some colleges still do AS. Good luck!

@poetryandwine Do you know if an EPQ makes much difference to COWI offers for maths? These are the top 4 but certainly want additional maths tests. So would working on that be better than an EPQ? Just wondering.

Hi, @TizerorFizz

The additional Maths tests are of crucial importance at each of the COWI Schools of Maths. Preparing for these should be the priority.

Explicitly, C, O and W encourage the EPQ as it cultivates useful higher level skills but across the university each fails to grant any concession on the offer for EPQ results. Imperial do not quite say this. However each School I could find discussing the EPQ says it.

Unfortunately DH does not know anyone in Imperial Maths who is involved in UG admissions. As ever, I expect and hope the admissions team would be glad to help with this very reasonable question. Email from the potential applicant is the preferred means of communication.

One additional point is that COWI Maths are looking for evidence of, if you will forgive the phrase, mathematical passion. An EPQ is one way to show that. But the passion won’t get you anywhere without a suitable exam mark, so that must come first! My sense is that few COWI STaeM students have done EPQs but it is rather vague

@poetryandwine thank you, it sounds like you know about this. Do you think top predicted grades in maths, further maths and physics a levels is enough to get offers from these universities or is a 4th a level needed?

Nothing is guaranteed here. My DC have 4 x A star levels and straight 9s, plus a star EPQ plus other super-curricular. I can confirm that even with 4 A levels, it does not always guarantee offers from the most competitive of courses.