3 or 4 A levels

[ALevelChoices]

My DS is doing his GCSEs and trying to decide which A levels to choose. He will do maths and further maths as he loves maths and plans to study it to degree level. His next favourite subject is Physics but I worry there will be a big overlap so the top universities might not see this as three separate a levels iyswim?
So my question is whether good predicted grades at these three a levels would collect him offers from decent universities or whether he would need to do another subject?
Then there is the issue of step papers and other extended learning which I know nothing about.

Yes but I don’t know which courses are the most competitive, does being top of the list mean more people apply? When I did my degree Nottingham had just become very popular but I think that was green campus and good nightlife rather than top notch teaching.

Hi, @ALevelChoices

In theory this is a fine set of A Levels. All of these SoMs will make offers on three A levels and these are the ones most relevant for a Maths degree. They all require FM if the School offers it.

The problem is that so many pupils are now predicted top grades across the board that further selection is needed. For Oxford, Warwick and Imperial, IMO the most important supporting evidence is an excellent mark on a relevant pre-application test. Oxford require this as part of the application and it is a big pre-interview filter for them. Imperial and Warwick offer the option of a pre-application test or STEP, which is taken with A Levels. I will say more about STEP below. Suffice it to say for now that the pre-application test is the easier option!

Would a fourth A level help? If a grade A can be achieved without sacrificing two or three A stars, the mark on the pre-application test, the supra-curriculars Oxbridge like to see (if the opportunity to pursue them has existed) and the applicant’s life and sanity - probably.

Warwick will offer on three A levels anyway, Oxbridge may vary, but Imperial Maths will typically make a dual offer of either three A stars or two A stars in Maths and FM and two As. Where the fourth may help is mostly behind the scenes in deciding who gets offers, because I cannot stress strongly enough how many great applicants won’t.

Cambridge make relatively more offers than the other three and then use STEP to control the size of the incoming cohort. It is brutal. Only about 50% of those with a Cambridge offer make it. IMO to some extent this is because of under preparation. These are the top Maths pupils in their community and many of them are thrown by finding Maths problems difficult for the first time. They don’t have proper study technique (they haven’t needed it), etc. But STEP is inherently difficult and preparation is far from the full story.

Imperial and Warwick (and others) also impose a STEP offer on those who did not take a pre-application test, but Cambridge set the grade boundaries nationwide.

For most students capable of three A stars in Maths, Physics and FM, I think the best advice is to stick with three and do your very best. Cultivate some in depth supra curricular Maths but don’t force it. Decide between C and O if either interests you. Prepare intensively for the pre-application test(s) you take and put some thought into preparing for interviews. Don’t worry about sounding intelligent; you are there because you are intelligent! Think about how to show your best true self and remember that the interview is a two way street.

Everyone, but everyone, needs a good insurance choice. There are many and DS should enjoy researching them. Two he may not have thought of are Glasgow and Lancaster. Both have very high student satisfaction. Glasgow was No 5 in the UK and top in Scotland in the last Research Exercise Framework (REF) and is Russell Group. Lancaster is now considered part of the RG+ and was also top 10 in the last REF (2021). REF matters to top students because in later years they have the chance for independent study. It can be a great experience. Not that UGs will be doing cutting edge Maths research, but the spirit is contagious.

(I also recommend Bath and several others but DS can do his own research. I just thought these two should not be overlooked).

This was a longer answer than you may have anticipated. I hope it helps. Best wishes to DS

PS In many circs I would concur with the advice from PPs to begin four A levels and see how FM goes. I am taking OP at her wird that DS is capable of an A star in FM

Many very able pupils find high school CS a bit boring. Just a thought. DS will have ample opportunity to learn programming in any good Maths degree programme. I agree he should do so

@poetryandwine that is very helpful, thank you. I agree insurance offers are equally important and whilst Oxford (where I went) would be great, universities like Manchester and Durham alongside summer placements should be enough to secure him the actuarial training place he is aiming for. I think the likes of Bristol and London might be too expensive for us from a COL point of view.

Thanks, OP. Any of the universities you or I have named and many others will be enough, with a good degree and hopefully some relevant experience, to get DS into the actuarial profession.

BTW is he thinking of a general Maths degree or an Actuarial one? My sense is that whilst an Actuarial degree may give an initial salary bump, because of the initial exam exemptions, anyone with a Maths background will catch up fast. Narrowing your options before beginning university by specialising seems to me a poor trade off unless you have a very good reason. At admissions meetings I have heard that UK universities decided to offer actuarial degrees fairly recently largely to attract more international students. Sadly that sounds about right.

If you also did Maths I apologise for telling you what you already knew

He is looking at a maths degree, but if he is still keen on actuarial I would encourage him to look at what modules he is able to take which will give him exemptions. I’d also encourage him to pick programming/computer science options as we have discussed.

Take a look at the leavers destinations for Kings Maths School. https://www.kingsmathsschool.com/about/results

A third of the year go to Oxbridge and they only allow 3 Alevels - Maths, FM and physics and an EPQ. Clearly no disadvantage

For Oxford, doing well in the pre test matters as it's a definite no if you don't make the cut. Although they take account of everything on the PS, that won't make up for below the cut off point in the MAT. That test is going to be revised so no info yet on new format I believe. It's not clear how many offer a EPQ. However all have to take the test.

Sorry, @TizerorFizz , I don’t understand your remark about the EPQ? Oxford will not make a lower offer because of it. It is unclear to me whether the EPQ like a 4th A level helps you stand out when Oxford decide who gets an offer - I think the best bet is to contact the admissions team as I discussed above.

An EPQ is def one way to show passion (sorry again) for one’s subject and focus the PS. But I agree the pre-application test is much, much more important.

Ds did FM Maths Physics and CS

He found it a good combination

DS presumably did well on the MAT, had offers from both Warwick and Imperial last year. Although he did do more than 3 A levels, all his offers were based on 3 only, M/FM and physics (or M/FM and any one other). He was encouraged to start an EPQ by his school but dropped it, and I think that for maths that was sensible. There are I think some good resources around for MAT and STEP preparation, worth spending time on alongside the A levels. DS was lucky to have friends to share STEP prep with.

None of the sixth form colleges we’ve been looking at would allow solely maths, FM and physics. They all say that FM has to be taken as a fourth a level. I didn’t push any of them on it, as mine plans to do something else too, but worth checking with your likely sixth form destination places.

Have you looked into if there are any nearby maths colleges? There are a few specialist maths-y ones around the country like the kings maths school cited above - could be a good option for a v maths focussed child?

Computer science would be a great one to pair maths / physics up with. Anything really. Would he consider something broadening if he’s v good at it? Add a humanity into the mix?

I didn’t even know specialist maths sixth forms existed. There is one in Liverpool which he could in theory commute to. Interesting. I did further maths in a school where there were only three of us doing it in our year. We had to basically teach ourselves the majority of the time and ask staff if we got stuck and couldn’t help each other out. I don’t know if it’s the same now or if more pupils pick further maths. At a specialist school everyone would be doing exactly the same subjects, so lots of like minded peers. Unlikely to have local friends though.

I think it’ll greatly depend where he takes his a levels. 30 years ago when I was choosing my a level choices I wanted to do further maths but my school didn’t run it in the end. I definitely missed it at uni as most others on my course had taken it, and they said “don’t worry if you haven’t taken further maths, we’ll cover that over the next few weeks then we can move on”. And that was me suddenly losing my grip on maths - the pace ran away with me and I went from 90%s to total loss. But I’m not really a natural mathematician, just quite good at it.

However, the large sixth form colleges we have been looking at are totally set up for further maths. They have great outcomes and are very focussed on it. Several classes per year full of people doing FM. Maybe it’s harder in some smaller schools if not many people are taking it. I wanted to mention the maths specialist places because it was news to me, and we happen to have one very nearby. But it seemed to me like you’d get great results from the larger normal colleges too.

Hmm, we are very rural so the larger sixth form college would be a short commute, the specialist one a longer commute. The local school is the one I attended but is now twice the size. We need to get to all the open days this autumn, as I have only just realised applications close as early as this December to start September 2025. Presumably school don’t tell you any of this as they want the brightest students to stay on by default.

Some colleges will teach Maths in yr1 and then FM in year 2 so you effectively take one each year and not concurrently.
Don't underestimate how hard doing 4 is. A couple of DD's exceptionally clever friends started doing 4 and both dropped one by Christmas

Ask the school now what their FM offering is - how many take it, what the outcomes are.

Don’t worry about the colleges timeline, that’s quite normal. Applications often open sept/October ish, and you can apply to, and accept, lots of them and only decide when you get GCSE results (at least, that’s how all the ones near us work, I don’t know England rules). Have a look on their websites - they might have open days this summer as well. And you can probably contact them and ask if you have specific FM questions.

I did try to ask his maths teacher at my last parents evening and was told she doesn’t teach A level so had no idea how it is taught. That about sums up his school if I am honest. I hope I am able to persuade him to start over somewhere new for a levels.

The compare-school-performance gov website will list A level subjects entered so you can see how many took each subject last year. Our local maths school allows one or two options in addition to maths and further maths. TMUA/MAT and STEP preparation can be time consuming and you can do a maths based EPQ. Edexcel spec has some suggestions. If definitely aiming for maths degree then 3 should be fine. If it may be another subject then would add another science or language for breadth.

That’s pretty rubbish. Contact head of maths? Definitely a good idea to look around to get the full picture.

Thank you this has made interesting reading. Local schools all have 2/3 doing further maths. Sixth form college 30 minute drive has 16 and specialist maths school, 1.5 hours away has 36.
I only looked at the data on performance that shows percentage achieving AAB or higher, including at least 2 facilitating subjects.

School he is at 8.2
School near my work 20.4
LA average 20.5
Large sixth form college 30.4
Specialist maths school 65.6

I guess the specialist maths school is drawing the most talented students but it must be motivating to be surrounded by other high achievers.

The AAB statistic excludes quite a lot of well regarded subjects so don't read too much info it.

Also worth asking what help if any is offered on preparing for the additional tests. There are online courses e.g. from AMSP.

When you look around the sixth forms, they’ll give their data on what percentage students got what grades in each subject - you’ll be able to see how the FM students get on.
Round near us, the specialist maths place has by far the highest entry requirements - they’ll take the top few from each year, the “really mathsy ones”. They’re more selective by a long way, so it’s not at all surprising grades are higher.
FM grades at all the places we looked at were very high compared to most other subjects - I think because they tend to ask for an 8 minimum and really mean more of a 9, and then kids drop it if it’s too much. So the only ones doing it are v likely to do well.