Grammar 6th form v comprehensive - any thoughts?

[Ferniebrook]

Hi all,

My son's local comp doesn't have a 6th form so we have to start looking. He should be getting 7-9s across the piece, all being well. I resisted the 11+ because I was keen for him to be in a local, comp within our community. It's been fine in the main, bar a couple of subjects where the pace has been slow in some year groups. As a result of that limited downside am keen to make sure he is in an excellent 6th form and is stretched but also has a breadth of experience. There isn't a super close 6th form, but we have good comp and grammar options. I am working on the basis that it is the school to think about rather than if grammar/ comp and of course they all have entrance requirements at that point anyway.

Anyone got any experiences to share? Many thanks

You / your DC might want to look at
. what % they take new in the 6th form.
. Entrance requirements
. Levels of freedom, uniform etc
. Do they guarantee DC can do the combination of subjects they want
. Travel time
. Requirements to do non subject activities
. Is grammar single sex or mixed

No actual experience it is all large colleges round my way

Have a look at both and decide which is best for your son. DS is at a grammar school now in year 10 and we are considering other options for 6th form as the subject choice at his grammar school is extremely limited.

My daughter is at a comp and turned down the grammar offer for sixth form despite getting the grades.

Main reasons - very science focused, she's a humanities girl, you have to wear business dress - again not her at all.

She independently got talking to 2 girls (different times) who said it wasn't that great despite the schools reputation.

Her comp is quite high achieving and they do have some come there from local grammars.

Thanks all. There are 2-3 grammars he could go to and 3 comps, so we'll look at them all and he can see. Lots to think about with EPQs, 3 or 4 A levels, IB etc etc. I think it will come down to fit for him and as above some are better on arts and humanities and some sciences. As he could go in any subject direction that won't narrow it down yet. I really want a good extra-curricular offer...

Comp all the way.
I had dds at grammars, moved for sixth form, all were much happier and achieved really well.
my ds decided to stay at his grammar for his A levels. He absolutely hates it! Yes the results are academically good, but the price is high. The kids are pushed, pitted against each other for grades, so think they’re failing. No banter or room for individual interpretations in class, detentions and supervised study if not meeting grades in tests. They don’t tell you that when you sign up!

That doesn't sound good at all. I do wonder a little though if it is school dependent. One of the grammars at least has a rep for being very pupil/ wellbeing focused. My son's comp is all about results on the contrary!

DD1 went to a comp then to grammar for A levels. The comp didn't offer Further Maths A level.
One of his teachers at the comp actually encouraged him to go to the grammar "to be around more like-minded people" (his words, not mine).

I remember asking him what the differences were between the 2 schools and he said "the teaching is better and there are less twats at the grammar". Obviously, he was 16 at the time!

He excelled at the grammar and it was definitely the right decision for him.

Mine both stayed at their grammars for sixth form, mainly because they wanted to stay with their friends.

DS grammar was shite. But the friends he made were fabulous. DD grammar has been exceptional. One has an outstanding Ofsted and one is requires improvement and it’s not the way round you’d think. So don’t take any notice of Ofsted!

Be aware that some unis offer contextual to comprehensive students but not grammar ones. So lower grades needed to get into some unis (Bristol springs to mind).

It’s only 18 months education so wherever they go it needs to be somewhere they will hit the ground running. I’d look at subjects offered (which can be woeful at some grammars) and wellbeing reputation - do they care about the student as a whole person instead of just as a set of results.

Thank you. The contextual point is interesting. Would they not look at pre-16?

Maybe check here, don’t think so:

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/entry-requirements-qualifications/contextual-offers/

https://exetereligibilitychecker.uk/

Expect they all vary but worth being aware of.

U of Bristol's contextual offer policy is a bit of an outlier as it focuses on school or college relative performance (below avge attainment and below avge HE progression) as opposed to the postcode characteristics of applicant's domicile.

So, grammar sixth forms are unlikely to feature at all, but equally high performing comp sixth forms or colleges are not on that list either. So if OPs comp alternatives are high performing, the effect on choice is likely to be neutral.

Yep - but definitely worth being aware of and checking in this kind of decision making. Only takes a minute or two to check on the links above as an example.

Mine have been at grammar from Y7 and continued at grammars for A level.

Main reason being that the music department is amazing. Many of our local comps aren't offering GCSE music and definitely not A Level, which dc wanted to take.

Sport on offer is also exceptional and dc have felt extremely well supported.

I think perhaps looking at the schools themselves can be more helpful rather than grammar/comp.
They will each have good and bad points and at sixth form you may find the difference between grammar and comp less as to some extent all sixth forms are somewhat selective.
So then it comes down to which course combinations they offer and any extra facilities that you value as well as general teaching ethos.
Hope that makes sense!

It definitely does - I want him to enjoy his two years. Also one of the comps is extremely popular and oversubscribed and one of the grammars is undersubscribed (you just have to meet their threshold grade level), so he needs 3 offers I think, to be sure he can go to one. Also they may tell you you can come but not for your first choice subjects..This may not be clarified until after GCSE results...

My dd is at a grammar and about 95% stay on for A levels, but my area doesn't have separate 6th form colleges. The ones that go to a college is for more vocational courses, or if they haven't achieved enough to stay on.

I also went to grammar. Based on what my dd tells me there are few behavioural issues in class/ the school. The school is quite strict though but really values sport and other extra curriculars. There is a very consistent staff team- I've only seen a few jobs advertised in the past 5 years, and they're mostly maternity cover.

You need to just explore what you've got and go from there.

Really interestingly one of the comps is on Bristol’s list. I think they are doing it on GCSE progress or maybe it’s because the schools takes a lot of children doing BTECs so less likely to go to uni. They regularly get 5-10 to Oxbridge and lots to Russell Group so seems a bit odd…

There are loads of schools on Bristol’s list - not just obviously underachieving ones. Do note it changes each year. It’s worth being aware of though.

Thanks. I think the idea being able to go to Bristol uni is really important is quite a leap, but good to be aware of these things!

You do need to be a bit careful. When you say "comprehensive" do you mean a true comprehensive or a high school/secondary modern? My DS went from a secondary modern to a grammar 6th form, and found it hard going at first-not so much academically as socially. Will he have friends going too?

The Bristol list is a bit odd (Peter Symonds and BHASVIC are on the list for 2024, plus a school that I know doesn’t currently have a sixth form) and it does change every year.

Often contextual offers are based on multiple factors such as attending state school, home postcode, being a young carer, FSM etc.

Worth being aware of, but not all unis offer contextual offers and the eligibility requirements will vary from year to year.

Thanks. We're in London and his friends will be going all over the place, he is likely to know some people in each of the schools. Quite a few of his primary peers went to grammars (some he is still in touch with) but I didn;'t put him in for the 11+ as I wanted a local school with a mixed intake (having gone to a comp myself). We're in a comprehensive area but a lot of children do go to grammars out of borough, so if it is truly comprehensive is debateable. There are certainly bright children there but obviously a much broader spread. The demographic will no doubt be different given his school has 50%+ on FSM so we will consider the feel of the schools when we go round. He'll have to get a measure of the schools. The comp he has his eye on is the one which is most heavily oversubscribed so we'll get him a few offers.

@Ferniebrook One aspect that makes a huge difference is what results look like for his subjects and what DC go on to do. Bristol is a fantastic uni but if he wanted to do MFL it’s hardly that difficult to get in. So subject matters in more ways than one.

When you look round, hopefully you can spent to existing pupils in his subjects. They spill the beans quite often! Also think about whether the pace will be what he wants and size of classes and facilities if they matter. My DD changed for 6th form and lower 6th had a uniform. It was the best school for her subjects so uniform didn’t matter one bit. Getting the high grades mattered more. So try not to choose on slightly juvenile judgements. Analyse the education he will get. Clothes don’t get you into uni.

Thanks. Subject choice is a whole other mine field and possibly one for my DS which is harder that choosing a school. He was very much on the maths and science side, but lately has really enjoyed and excelled in English Lit and philosophy and ethics so he won't find it easy to make a decision. It feels tough to have to do this by December in year 11. I hope schools will allow some flexibility later but I know this wont be guaranteed, another reason why i think we need to hold 3 offers...

@Ferniebrook Being good at English is such a useful skill in a scientist though! Maybe look at a few careers and work back? Easier to get a job with sciences. Lots of competition for jobs humanities grads want. Management is a good hybrid!