Grammar 6th form v comprehensive - any thoughts?

[Ferniebrook]

Hi all,

My son's local comp doesn't have a 6th form so we have to start looking. He should be getting 7-9s across the piece, all being well. I resisted the 11+ because I was keen for him to be in a local, comp within our community. It's been fine in the main, bar a couple of subjects where the pace has been slow in some year groups. As a result of that limited downside am keen to make sure he is in an excellent 6th form and is stretched but also has a breadth of experience. There isn't a super close 6th form, but we have good comp and grammar options. I am working on the basis that it is the school to think about rather than if grammar/ comp and of course they all have entrance requirements at that point anyway.

Anyone got any experiences to share? Many thanks

Yeah everyone in my family has an arts degree (bar the highest earning sibling who has no degree :-)). My DS wants to stay in the moment and not think too far ahead, but at some point in the next 6 months we'll have to have these discussions. I appreciate everyone's input.

If your DS enjoys maths (and is on track to get 8 or 9 at GCSE) then maths A level would keep some doors open for uni and beyond.

Agree with @TizerorFizz that English is helpful for scientists and engineers to be able to write clearly and concisely (and speaking as an engineer with English A level that ended up being the goto person for technical report writing).

He is good at Maths and also doing further maths GCSE (not sure if he will get an 8 or 9 though, always been in top set but not sure if it could be a 7 rather than an 8 or 9, no predicted grades yet) but I don't know if he has the passion for it...he loves chemistry. But to do chemistry at uni I think he'd need maths so there is going to be a lot to consider

There’s been quite a lot of discussion on MN in recent years about the jump from GCSE maths to A level, so worth doing a search on old threads.

But if he doesn’t love maths then I think A level maths is a big ask.

Depends on him?

ds was middling at a not very good comp but somehow got great GCSE. He couldn’t transfer to grammar as he was then out of the country until sept.

so he’s still at the same comp but doing fine. He’s been able to take the combination of a levels he wanted whereas some of his friends had to compromise on subjects to get into the grammar.

that said he’s had v little help in terms of opportunities and applying for uni. But he managed to get offers at RGs.

he’s not particularly happy there but his exams are in a few weeks and then he’s done. He’s predicted 2 x A* and an A (sane as his grammar pals).

id say let your child go to the open days and see how they feel. Hope it goes well.

Yeah he has to choose what he will enjoy. A levels are hard and fundamentally you need to do what you enjoy and are good at, with an eye on where it might take you (unless you are someone 100% set on a career in which case you might make sacrifices). I did a social and political sciences degree first off but am now in my 40s doing a bio/chem undergrad with the OU. Nothing is set in stone and you can do so much as an adult...

Well done him and you!

@Ferniebrook You are right.
He absolutely has to do the A levels of his liking and choosing. It’s a guaranteed disaster otherwise

@Ferniebrook When choosing A levels there are still combinations that work better for competitive courses. Obviously not all unis and courses are competitive but I’d rather be on the front foot.

The “How to Choose A Levels and High School Subjects” on the Cambridge University undergrad pages is worth digesting. Yes, I know he’s probably not thinking of Cambridge but it gives a great explanation of combinations and what they consider suitable prep for their degrees. DS doesn’t have to follow it but this is why grammars don’t offer every subject under the sun. No one needs them. They might like them, but that’s not the same thing.

Thanks - I’ll take a look, sounds a useful resource. I guess it’s the eye to the future bit. Do what you enjoy while keeping options open/ not unknowingly ruling later options out.

@Ferniebrook, there have been lots of helpful threads about Maths A level, combinations with Chemistry and mixing STEM and non-STEM A levels. To summarise (hopefully correctly):

Embarking on Maths A level with less than 8 or 9 at GCSE is cautioned against and some sixth forms or colleges have high GCSE grade requs for that reason.

Only a small number of Chem degrees require Maths A level (Oxford, Cambridge (natsci route), ICL, Durham, Scottish unis); most do prefer a second science, which could be biology rather than maths (physics without maths is not advised); psychology and compsci can be regarded as a second science by some unis (but not all).

Mixing STEM and non-STEM, where Maths is not taken, typically means two STEM and one non-STEM to keep STEM doors truly open. An alternative is to have all non-STEM but supported by core maths and/or more quantitative social science A levels such as Geog or Econ in the mix; whilst this probably means STEM doors are closed, quantitative skills are kept refreshed.

This is obviously a broad brush summary and not some set of immutable rules but might help when looking at subject options and the mixing of options across the various sixth forms.

I have DC who did a mix of STEM and non-STEM and one who was keen on Chemistry, hence the awareness and interest. They went to the sixth form in their comp and liked the general culture (some boundaries but no uniform), the fact is was not single sex (reflecting society at large) and the willingness of the school to really make option blocks work for everyone.

My DDs found society at large outside the school gates! It seemed to include boys! Inside school: clearly a girls’ world and they thrived in that. You can have both.

This is really helpful thanks. These things change often with my DS - if you'd have asked 6 months ago he would have said Maths, Physics and Chem. Could be anywhere by next September. Some of the schools say 4 A levels then one becomes an AS. With the IB you would have to have maths at standard at least, but I don't think that would satisfy the big guns you listed....

DD is in same boat. Trying to decide between a grammar 6th form and a nearby comprehensive 6th form. Both are excellent. She's leaning towards the comp just because it feels more familiar. She found the taster day at the grammar a bit alienating (lots of public school style traditions and slightly cliquey vibe).

Traditions are nice in my view. Makes schools slightly different. Don’t see it as off putting. DC have to get used to the unfamiliar at some stage.

Definitely go with vibe/feel. Cliquey vibe is a red flag, I’d steer clear. It’s hard enough to make friends with existing long friendship groups as it is. Sixth form is only 18 months and so you need to hit the ground running without all the worry of cliques and shit! I’d go with familiar and comfort and leave the exploring to uni.

I was in this position with my DS who had to leave his comprehensive school due to a lack of sixth form. We are in a borough with a mix of comps and grammar schools (perhaps the same borough as you) and we kept open minds when we visited each sixth form. The subject availability was the most important criteria and after that we decided on the feel of the place. My DS opted for the grammar sixth form in the end because he had got a bit fed up in Year 11 with being distracted by the unruly pupils and he was worried that some of the pupils at the comp would muck around and take it less seriously (I don’t think this would have been the case but my son’s reasoning was the unruly pupils from his secondary school were going to the comp sixth form and he doubted they’d change their ways). So far, he’s having a great time and is is glad of his choice - the grammar school is very driven and spends a lot of time helping pupils with the UCAS application and has many speakers from unis visiting to speak to pupils.

He found there was a good mix of grammar pupils and new pupils and they have all mixed really well.

Both mine changed schools for sixth form. Dd was at a single sex selective independent on a bursary. She had offers from two grammars (one mixed, one boys and then mixed for sixth form), one comp (girls school mixed for sixth form) and a sixth form college. All had their plus points - in the end she went for the boys grammar, as all the girls would be new, it was accessible on train not bus (hated the bus!) and because she liked the history syllabus best. It was fine, stricter than her previous school which was annoying and it had a uniform but otherwise she enjoyed it. The key is to work out the pros and cons of each (distance, travel method, dress code, subjects offered, number of new joiners etc) and then weigh them up!

Ds had to move as we were relocating. He chose the local comp as he wanted to make local friends (other options were the college in a bigger town, grammar in another bigger town or other comps not in our town). That bit has worked out well but the dress code and general school rules have been a cause of much stress!

I think grammars can actually be more laid back than comps. Some comps are like military institutions. I definitely agree that dc should look at regime in charge.

I agree with you. I don't have direct loads grammar experience, only what I hear, but my son's comp and others I know are very strict (admittedly some are definitiely not). I think they are basically worried about losing control (as they did in the past) so everything is very tight, in some schools oppressively so. I think that is the school's character more than if selective or not.

@TizerorFizz Im in a grammar county. I know lots of dc who have been to a variety of grammars. None have complained about ethos or draconian management regimes. It’s respectful and a purposeful environment. My own DDs went to private schools and they had a similar feel. I fully accept that some dc are not easy to manage but hopefully 6th forms are a bit more relaxed. However they are not an island so overall the atmosphere would matter to my dc.

Definitely my experience.

My dc have had lovely experiences at grammar schools - no detentions, negatives etc, generally decent behaviour and respected by peers and staff.

The stories I hear from friends' kids about their experiences in local comps are so sad - restricted toilet use, bad behaviour in lessons and between lessons, bullying, detentions and missing out on whole school treats at the end of the year due to getting a 'negative' at the start of year 7 for something minor and accidental.

I think we have to be careful not to confuse how lower school is run in a non-grammar state school to how its sixth form is run. Those of you with DC at grammar and talking about local comps need to bear in mind that those comps are comps in name only and, in reality, they are secondary moderns as the top 15-20% have been sliced away, leaving a rump where the proportion of challenging students is, as a consequence, greater; these schools need to impose structures to make things work and hats off to them. I live in an area with no grammar schools and whilst my DCs' (true) comp, with a very varied socio-economic catchment, has very clear rules and sanctions, it is not overbearing. Furthermore, at sixth form in the same school it is much more relaxed as it is typically only the more academic students who have chosen to stay on and take A levels.

If a DC has not enjoyed the ethos of a school they might not want to stay. I think dc in most highly structured schools do see that ethos in the 6th form. Same teachers! They don't suddenly get divorced from the school ethos.

Obviously there are no comps in a grammar county and not all secondaries will have 6th forms. The secondaries have lower entry requirements than the grammars. True comps should be different but that wholly depends on area and who chooses the school.