A Level choices - Maths plus ? ? Advice appreciated

[Madeinessex]

Sorry it’s long as trying to get relevant info in the opening post.

DS is struggling to decide on his A levels, so we are working backwards from what degree he may want to study. His favourite and best subject is maths. He won’t change that as an A level. He works hard and gets good grades.

Post 6th form he has his eye on
finance/economics/business/actuarial degrees type degree’s. But that could change!

Which of these options would give him a better chance of studying the above. He would prefer RG uni, but I think that’s just because it’s talked about a lot amongst his friends, that idea may change once he visits different unis.

Unfortunately physics and economics can’t be taken together as they are a timetable clash. Maths, Physics and Economics would be his ideal mix, but it can’t be done.
Also, 6th form will only allow further maths as a 4th A level and not as part of the choice of 3.

Choices would be:

1- Maths, Economics and Biology
2-Maths, Physics and Business Studies

He enjoys all equally, so he is not concerned about that, he just wants to pick the ones that give him the best chance.

He will also do an EPQ.

He seems to think that B Studies is seen as a lesser A level, I’m not sure if that is true, however it doesn’t appear on RG preferred subjects. Would taking this be an issue?

He seems to think choice 1 will give him a better chance of getting on the degree he wants as they are preferred subjects. He thinks choice 2 will be an easier route as Bus Studies is a soft A level and will be easier to score a good grade, but may not get him on the degree course. (I’ve pointed out the jump from GCSE to A level is huge and there isn’t an ‘easy’ A level otherwise everyone would do it)

I think choice 1 looks a bit random as biology doesn’t ‘fit’ with the other 2 subjects, but it on the preferred subject lists. He’d have no use for the biology after 6th form.
I suggested choice 2 as it seems a sensible compromise with BS for Economics and both look useful after 6th form with his intended degree choice, but he keeps saying B Stud isn’t on the preferred list.

The only other 6th form in striking distance has gone into special measures, kids and teachers are leaving in droves, so it’s not an option.

Does anyone have any experience they can share on this. Or any advice. Or suggestions.

Thanks for making to the end of this post!

Hi OP, will you DS be taking Further Maths as a fourth A level? If so, taking an EPQ in addition may be a very heavy workload and compromise his grades in one or more of his A levels. If he has the capacity to do more than three A levels, is likely to do well at Maths A level (eg 8 or 9 at GCSE) and is interested in maths or maths-related degrees, then Further Maths would be the priority.

You say Business Studies is not 'on the preferred list'; what does this relate to? The LSE has lists of preferred and non-preferred subjects and Business is on the non-preferred list; Cambridge sees Business as more vocational in nature and so less suitable (The Subject Matters pdf). However, I am not aware of other unis steering applicants away from Business A level in this way. We just need to be careful not to assume there is some kind of overarching 'list' out there.

I would suggest maths, FM, physics and xxx - biology, business?

Or maths, FM, economics, business. Fm is a good idea if he wants to do maths or econ at uni.

I would do the first option as I think it does look a bit better for the degree he wants to do. If there's a possibility he might want to do engineering, I'd do the physics option.
My dd was the same as your son, although less idea what she wanted to do afterwards, and chose maths, further maths, computer science and a social science which she has now dropped. Now she has decided she wants to do engineering, she regrets not taking physics as it cuts off quite a lot of engineering degrees.

He will definitely do something with a Maths element at uni.

@clary the school have advised that BS and Economics are seen as overlapping subjects and therefore can cause issues with uni applications as they may not be counted as separate A levels, and this combo is best avoided. But, I see what you are saying

@PerpetualOptimist there is an option to take FM, and he would be happy to take it, but is conflicted with regards to whether 4 is a good idea. On the other hand if he dropped the EPQ that would be more do able.
Maths is his best subject. He got 9s in his mocks and it’s a subject that seems to click for him.

It was LSE and Cambridge that he was looking at with regard to universities, and he was v focused on the preferred subjects list. Obviously these very over subscribed universities and he would have to be head and shoulders above others to get in. He has also been looking at Queen Mary uni too. He is setting his sights high!

“We just need to be careful not to assume there is some kind of overarching 'list' out there”. I think we/he has fallen down that rabbit hole.

Do you think/know if he took 4 A Levels - maths, FM, Physics and BS it would effectively discount a LSE or Cambridge application due to the BS?

This is a whole new world to me as I didn’t go to university.

@orchardsquare that is a good point about physics. He did think about CS, but he isn’t as strong in that as he is other subjects

I'd suggest FM, if he can. If it's the fourth he can always drop if it's too much. I remain unconvinced on the usefulness of EPQs. Maths, FM, one out of Business / economics and probably Physics over bio as all that maths makes Physics easy (according to my son who has just finished A levels).

Hi OP, if he is aiming high in terms of maths or maths-adjacent degrees and his school offers FM, then he most likely needs to take FM, otherwise its absence counts against him at the likes of Cambridge and LSE - probably to a much greater extent than whether he chose Business A level as part of his mix. Cambridge's The Subject Matters pdf makes the point that FM is very good preparation for maths and similar at uni.

He will definitely do something with a Maths element at uni.

Then he should take FM for sure.

With Maths and FM all maths-type courses will be accessible. By which I mean - maths (FM basically essential esp for top-rated unis); economics (econ A level not needed) Com sci (CS a level ditto), some engineering by agree physics would help there.

Never heard of unis not counting business and economics as separate A levels! You could say that about maths and FM (and I think for some courses such as medicine, some unis are not keen) - for most maths-related degrees FM is deffo a separate A level. Ask anyone who has done it.

Also - if you love maths, why wouldn;t you do it? DD would have loved to do Further English Lit* rather than French A level.

If you are worried about rigour or facilitating subjects then how about maths, FM, physics, business? or maths, FM, physics, biology?

Just to reiterate - if he is at all interested in a maths-related degree, esp at LSE, cambridge etc, then FM is muh more important than worrying about how business is viewed. If he has Maths, FM, physics then he is good to go anyway.

If he finds he hates FM then he can drop it and reconsider the maths degree idea as well.

*caveat; this does not exist

Is there a statistics A-Level he can do? It really depends what A-levels the 6th form offer.

Taking Durham Accounting and Finance as an example, they require AAB and only specify Maths.

For the Durham Economics degree they require A*AA and say “Applicants are encouraged to avoid studying both Economics and Business Studies.”

The more important thing will be doing a 3rd A-Level subject he is interested in and will get a good grade in. That could be music, or psychology or anything.

So I say Maths, Economics & whatever he is best at, plus FM if he can handle it.

hahahah I see @PerpetualOptimist made the same point as me in rather fewer words lol. #always

Agree btw EPQ is a rather pointless thing sorry, unless of course it sparks and interest which you can talk about in the PS. Or you get an A and a lower offer. Maybe.

@Madeinessex I agree with pp that a combination of Maths/Further Maths/Physics and then whatever else he wants to do (economics/business studies) as a fourth A-level (but probably in his studies to focus on Maths/Further Maths/Physics). Sadly schools receive less funding for Further Maths which is probably why the school is insisting on it being taken as a 4th option, however Maths/Further Maths/Physics is an incredibly common subject combination for applicants to top universities who are hoping to study maths, physics, engineering, economics, etc.

Universities definitely won't discount or think less of an applicant who has Maths/Further Maths/Physics/Business Studies just because they're taking business studies, but they might not include business studies as part of the offer (e.g. your son might receive an offer to get particular grades in maths/further maths/physics).

Maths is very competitive when you get to UCAS applications, further maths will be required and there are not many contextual offers. By doing 4, it does give some extra flexibility as a maths based degree at RG will want the A* in maths.

My DS did Maths, Economics and Physics and then went on to get a first in Economics and now has a finance job in an asset management company.
He said he’d wished he’d picked German instead of Physics as he struggled with Physics.

Personally I would seriously consider moving to a different sixth form which allowed more flexibility of subjects - either to take FM not as a 4th A Level or to study physics and economics.

Otherwise, I think either choice would be perfectly fine and it's up to DC to choose which he'd prefer.

I agree if he's thinking of 4 A Levels, then an EPQ as well would be too much.

What would he like to cover in his EPQ? I think the main reason for doing one should be to be able to explore something outside of your main A Level courses. It's hard work and you need to be very self driven, so not a thing to do "just because".

Hi OP, taking FM as a 4th A level would aid your DS's relative competitiveness ('despite' taking Business A level) in the eyes Cambridge and the LSE because, if you look at the detail of the relevant guidance text in both cases, they do not rule out Business if it is taken alongside three 'academic' subjects (at Cambridge) or at least two 'preferred' subjects (at the LSE). Obviously someone with all academic/preferred subjects may be in a stronger position but my point is that it is all a bit more nuanced.

clary, your posts are usually much more incisive than mine, so it is nice to turn the tables for once! You might be interested to hear that the LSE is another uni who frown on Econ and Business being taken together (buried slightly but also in the preferred subjects section).

Back to you, OP, from time to time, there are some useful threads about Business v Economics; here on such:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4058674-A-level-choice-Business-or-Economics

My ds studied accounting and finance at Warwick with IB higher level subjects in Maths, chemistry and Biology. A lot of students on his course has studied economics/ business at a level, but he soon caught up.
my dd is studying maths, further maths, chemistry and biology and decided an EPQ was too much with four a levels. If your ds loves maths definitely take further maths.

Sorry for the delay. I typed a long reply yesterday and lost it before it posted.

@ShanghaiDiva I think an EPQ would be too much too. He isn’t even certain what he would do it on.

@redskytwonight @Plasmodesmata the only other option in striking distance is in special measures, so that is not really a viable option.

@Plasmodesmata my only concern is that if 4 A levels became too much the school would request he drops FM. I did double check with them, and they stand firm that no one can pick FM as a main A level. Therefore he could end up under massive pressure to carry on the 4 as the offer would be conditional on FM

@PerpetualOptimist thats an interesting point you make about FM counting against him if he didn’t have it. Thanks for the BS V Economics thread link.

@BabylonianChild no statistics A level on offer unfortunately. The only other subjects available to him in the option blocks are Eng Lit (he doesn’t like this), history (doesn’t like this either), CS (likes but finds it very hard to get the top marks), Psychology (zero interest)

I’ve been through all your points with him and he has been re examining his choices, also, looking at possibly uni courses, checking what working degrees are available/have to offer and looking at jobs to see the entry requirements/career progression/professional qualifications required/potential salaries etc.

FM is firmly on the table.✅

Thanks for all your responses, it’s so useful to have other views on this as I am a bit lost with it all to be honest!

Does his school offer politics or philosophy? They could go well with maths and physics if aiming for economics later

I think Business would be OK if he's also doing FM (plus Physics and Maths).

Physics helps for the applied part of Maths A level. I would suggest option 2 with Maths and further Maths and no EPQ. My son is doing Maths/further Maths with 2 other A levels and wishes he had done Physics. He has been looking over the shoulder of his friend doing Physics A level and he says it looks far more interesting than the stuff done in Physics GCSE. You don't need to do Economics to do a degree that is Economics related but doing Physics A level opens more doors for a greater variety of degrees.

He needs to check what modules the school does for their further maths. If they do an applied module for further, that further strengthens the argument for Physics!

Does he like science. M,Fm, Phys and Chem is the common combination for STEM types who want to keep their options open.

(I did this combination, then a maths degree and am now an actuary.)

I am surprised that you can’t do Physics and Economics though. It is a pretty common combination.

RE the workload-From what I've seem with Maths/Further Maths yes they are two separate A levels, but most schools do the Maths syllabus in year 12 and the further in year 13. M/FM groups tend to be small and all the students are there because they are good at Maths and so they can work faster at the Maths. The Maths/Further Maths combination is far more manageable than two unlinked A levels.

I'd suggest Maths, FMaths, Physics and Business Studies.

Don't worry about BS being seen as "easier", because it won't matter if the others are deemed "very hard" subjects of Maths and Physics. Most Unis only want 2 "hard" or facilitating subjects and aren't really that bothered about the third, especially if there's both Maths and FMaths alongside the Physics.

It's a shame, as doing Economics at A levels means less work when they do Economics in the degree (and economics in the actuarial professional exams).

My DS did A level economics and had to put very little effort into the two economics modules of his Financial Maths degree (he's moving on into Actuarial graduate scheme at a big insurance firm). He did Maths, Physics and Economics.

I'd certainly avoid doing Maths, Economics and BS as the main 3, as, yes, both economics and BS together can be seen as "lightweight" leaving only the Maths as the hard/facilitating subject. My son was strongly advised by his sixth form to avoid that combo for those reasons.

@Madeinessex Im amazed they won’t allow FM as a third subject. My neighbour’s DS did M/FM/P and went to Exeter for maths. So FM as a third subject really cuts out very few unis. QMUL is much easier to get into than LSE or Cambridge or Warwick. However if FM is available he should do it but the school is not being sensible about FM. They aren’t being sensible about Economics either. So for his 4th A level I would do B Studies but the school should offer BS or Econ for a choice. No one does both.