A Level choices - Maths plus ? ? Advice appreciated

[Madeinessex]

Sorry it’s long as trying to get relevant info in the opening post.

DS is struggling to decide on his A levels, so we are working backwards from what degree he may want to study. His favourite and best subject is maths. He won’t change that as an A level. He works hard and gets good grades.

Post 6th form he has his eye on
finance/economics/business/actuarial degrees type degree’s. But that could change!

Which of these options would give him a better chance of studying the above. He would prefer RG uni, but I think that’s just because it’s talked about a lot amongst his friends, that idea may change once he visits different unis.

Unfortunately physics and economics can’t be taken together as they are a timetable clash. Maths, Physics and Economics would be his ideal mix, but it can’t be done.
Also, 6th form will only allow further maths as a 4th A level and not as part of the choice of 3.

Choices would be:

1- Maths, Economics and Biology
2-Maths, Physics and Business Studies

He enjoys all equally, so he is not concerned about that, he just wants to pick the ones that give him the best chance.

He will also do an EPQ.

He seems to think that B Studies is seen as a lesser A level, I’m not sure if that is true, however it doesn’t appear on RG preferred subjects. Would taking this be an issue?

He seems to think choice 1 will give him a better chance of getting on the degree he wants as they are preferred subjects. He thinks choice 2 will be an easier route as Bus Studies is a soft A level and will be easier to score a good grade, but may not get him on the degree course. (I’ve pointed out the jump from GCSE to A level is huge and there isn’t an ‘easy’ A level otherwise everyone would do it)

I think choice 1 looks a bit random as biology doesn’t ‘fit’ with the other 2 subjects, but it on the preferred subject lists. He’d have no use for the biology after 6th form.
I suggested choice 2 as it seems a sensible compromise with BS for Economics and both look useful after 6th form with his intended degree choice, but he keeps saying B Stud isn’t on the preferred list.

The only other 6th form in striking distance has gone into special measures, kids and teachers are leaving in droves, so it’s not an option.

Does anyone have any experience they can share on this. Or any advice. Or suggestions.

Thanks for making to the end of this post!

I would recommend
Maths, Further Maths, Economics and an A level that has intensive writing like English lit or history or ancient civ.

The RG unis value an intensive writing A level that teaches critical thinking for finance, law, economist type degree courses.

Did he want to do those degrees?

What about maths, business studies & politics?

Are politics and maths a good combination? Can’t see it myself for a Dc who is good at maths.

@Nat6999 he has zero interest in politics.

@MillicentBystandr he doesn’t like Eng Lit or History and the other isn’t offered.

@mushroom3 I have asked him to find out about the modules. FM is def 4th A level only, and if you struggle with 4 subjects it’s the one you have to drop, irrespective of how well you are doing in that subject compared to your other 3. Tbh, school years 7 to 11 have been brilliant school wise, but the 6th form isn’t looking so great for him.
There is no split of yr12/13 maths/fm either, which would be a bonus if there was as I can really see the advantage of that.

@TizerorFizz he will want to do a degree with Maths, or a dual one, with Maths. There will definitely be Maths involved.
You’re right about the school not being sensible with FM, Economics and BS.

Out of interest why is QMUL easier to get into? I don’t fully understand all this uni stuff and rankings. I get OxBridge is the top ranking, is it then followed by RG? Is there a ranking within RG?

@Badbadbunny I think actuarial is a career path he could follow so it’s interesting to hear your perspective.

@Madeinessex Yes. There a big difference within RG. Just looking at maths: QMUL is 37th for maths in the complete university guide. Only Newcastle if the RG group is ranked below it. Plenty of non RG are ranked above. So don’t assume all RG are the same, they are not. Take a look at entry requirements (for maths some unis want extra tests and really like FM) and there can be quite a difference in A level grades required between the top ranked and mid ranked, but not for all subjects .

A friend’s DD is an actuary. Did maths at uni. A Maths degree keeps so many doors open. FM for A level keeps more degrees on the table. I think a maths degree is best but it isn’t for everyone. Business or management degrees at somewhere like Bath are sought after. Non RG but punches above QMUL.

My DD did Maths and Further maths, History, general Studies and Spanish at A Level. She dropped GS after Year 12 though. Went on to study Maths at an RG uni and got a graduate training contract with one of the big 4 accountancy firms. She obtained lots of qualifications to do with accountancy and Tax whilst there. She has just started working for a worldwide company as a Tax manager. Loves it!

@Madeinessex you mention above your DS definitely wants to follow a career which includes Maths, I therefore think Maths/further maths, Physics and Business studies would keep the most doors open for him.You don't need Economics A level to do a degree involving Economics and Physics definitely helps with the applied maths side. It also means engineering degrees would be possible if he would be so inclined.

@Madeinessex I think it is best to start at the beginning, universities are ranked overall but also by their subjects. So they may be a 5 overall but a 12 on a specific subject or vice versa. The most used university ranking list is probably

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings

although there are ones by The Guardian and The Times too. Then you can drill down by subject so for mathematics it is Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick, St Andrews, LSE, Bath, UCL, Edinburgh and Bristol and then 11th Durham. As Durham has been mentioned above "Taking Durham Accounting and Finance as an example, they require AAB and only specify Maths" Durham is ranked overall at 8th but their Economics or A&F courses are ALL BAs not BScs. They lead more toward it being a social science, more PPE (Philosophy, Politics and Economics) than maths based which the BSc would be. We have just been to their open day for Economics.

Maths absolutely needs further maths if looking to do maths with anything at uni. They cannot state fm as not all sixth forms offer it but it would disadvantage any applicant applying as the vast majority of the other applicants will have it. When you say "There is no split of yr12/13 maths/fm either" do you mean they definitely do them side by side in year 12? Both my sons did 4 A levels taking maths with fm, it is usually a 4th subject due to the way funding works. My youngest son is in year 12 now going into year 13. In their sixth form there is a maths class which does maths over 2 years and a "further maths maths" class. The fm class has both maths and further maths on their timetable but they absolutely only do maths A level content in both lessons in year 12. They do fm in year 13 as it builds on their maths knowledge. Some students do drop out of the fm stream into the normal maths class if they are struggling with the pace. Both of my sons got high 9s at GCSE. They sit both maths and fm exams at the end of year 13.

For maths Ds's sixth form only asks for a grade 6 at GCSE, but noblegiraffe who is a maths teacher will tell you that even coming in on a 7 at GCSE will probably see most students with a C at A level. Whereas a 9 will give you a better chance of getting an A star as they have the foundation knowledge on which they can build.

Ds1 says fm isn't like doing a full A level as you are expanding your knowledge of maths, not learning something from scratch. I am also unsure as to whether they will ask for 4 A level grades they usually only ask for 3 and stipulate an A star in maths or fm. A few unis might and it is worth asking the uni admissions on this. Neither of my sons did an EPQ due to the 4 A level workload however both of mine completed all their homework in their free periods in school. They had 5 hours of frees per week. Contact time was 5 hours per subject for Ds1 and 4 1/2 hours for Ds2.

I don't know why you are worrying about fm if he is going to apply for maths at uni as he should be able to keep up with fm. For some unis he will have to sit a maths entrance exam, that could be TMUA (Test of Mathematics for University Admission which is being phased out but no doubt replaced with something) MAT or STEP. Some take place in early November of year 13, STEP is June when they sit their A levels. Past papers are online. For somewhere like Cambridge, they deliberately set the STEP pass grade to cull around 50% of their maths applicants, ie they have the grades but "fail" STEP because they over offer and cull until they reach their desired number of students so only take the best of the best. That is what I have read on here anyway.

My advice is do the maths, fm, economics which is an essay based A level. I wouldn't recommend BS, sorry. About the other slot, this is just 2 years and not really 2 to be honest, more like 18 months of a subject. He needs to know this is about grades on a paper. Entry grades are the lowest level they will take someone in on so to have more of a chance of getting in they need higher grades than the entry. So what subject could he ace out? Also know that some unis are always oversubscribed so even with 4 A stars and 9s across the board at GCSE they will reject some just because of sheer numbers.

The OP said RG. What the top 4 do re extra papers really might not matter. There’s over 20 others plus Lancaster, Bath, Loughborough. Not all RG will demand FM. FM does help, but is not always obligatory!

FM is never obligatory, because some schools do not offer it, and universities don't want to put off potential students from applying.

But if doing maths (or a maths heavy) course, and the school does offer FM, then people might wonder why not. Because if someone doesn't like maths enough to want to do FM, are they really interested in a maths subject at a higher level?

Also, on a practical note, it can make the first couple of terms at university harder, as topics will be covered quickly and those who have done them before will have less to learn.

Obviously I'm not commanding "thou shalt do FM" but for certain degrees, it really is worth having. It's not a tick in a box, it's useful.

Just looking at maths: QMUL is 37th for maths in the complete university guide.

Is that for undergraduates? I thought QMUL was very good for maths but I'm thinking about research.

From some of the open days we've been to (this has been for Maths rather than Maths applied degrees) the assumption is that you will have done further Maths unless your school/college doesn't offer it.

@HolidayPlansAPlanning

Maths absolutely needs further maths if looking to do maths with anything at uni.

No. Plenty of top Unis accept students onto Maths degrees without FM. It's only a minority who insist on it.

@Badbadbunny they can't insist on it because not all sixth forms offer it so it is seen as unfair to ask for it ie you probably went to a state school who doesn't offer it. Scottish Highers also do not have a Further Maths equivalent. The OP said Cambridge, they ask for it "All Colleges require: A Level/IB Higher Level Mathematics, A Level Further Mathematics (A Level students only), STEP. Some Colleges Require: A Level/IB Higher Level in a science subject; A Level/IB Higher Level Physics (for Mathematics with Physics only)

The OP also said LSE who again require it. A-levels AAA, with an A* in Mathematics. Where it is offered by your school or college, AS- or A-level Further Mathematics is expected to be taken and a grade A achieved.
We also consider your AS grades, if available.

Of those I listed at top 10, Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick, Bath, Bristol, UCL (except the 2 Scottish unis) all ask for further maths. Usually they ask for an entry test too which tests beyond what you have been taught for A level. Ds was told it was to test your ability to make the next logical step in maths without having been taught it. He sat a maths entry exam for uni.

It may not be specifically listed for some but if you look at the actual admissions stats usually found on Freedom of Information requests for maths at top unis then the applicants they offer to almost all have it. Oversubscribed universities have choices in who they accept onto their course. Why would they want someone who is apparently enthusiastic about maths but didn't take fm? As I said it puts them at a disadvantage when applying. Both of my sons took fm, that means 50% of their A level timetable is maths.

I speak from my son's recent experience. His school offered it, he chose not to take it. He has just got a First in his Maths degree at a top 10 UK University!

He got offers from Durham, York, Lancaster, Leeds and Newcastle, all for Maths degrees.

From memory, it was only the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, Warwick and St Andrews that had FM (or equivalent test) as compulsory!

I think we need to draw a distinction between suggestions for OP's DS and more general comments about Maths/FM and Maths at uni. In OP's case, if aspirations are currently focused on highly competitive Maths courses, then taking FM makes sense for many of the reasons outlined above (and acknowledged upthread by OP).

More generally, amongst unis below the very 'top tier' for Maths, a significant proportion of students do not have FM (eg SACU Student data suggests upwards to 50% of those studying BSc Mathematics at Birmingham, Exeter and L'boro, for example, do not). They will have a tougher first year, most likely, but many obviously survive and thrive because Y1 drop out rates are not particularly high at those unis cited. So, FM is a good thing to take if you can, but if you have not, it does not rule out Maths at uni.

With regards tests (STEP, MAT, TMUA), the position is nuanced. For a small number of top tier Maths courses, an additional test is mandatory; at other top tier unis it can lead to a reduced offer (from horrifically high to just high!). Others, like U of Bath, only request additional tests for those without FM. Below the top tier, a good score in the TMUA or MAT may secure a lower offer but a standard offer is likely to be made whether a test is taken or not.

With regards Business A-level, it should be remembered that can be essay heavy (depending on exam board) and does develop critical thinking skills and so could be a perfectly reasonable supplement to a Maths/FM/Phys combination which, for reasons outlined upthread, would not be terminal to an application to Cambridge or LSE (as they make clear in their own guidance), if they remained on OP's DS's radar.

@Badbadbunny that may be so and congratulations to your son. But the OP specifically said Cambridge and LSE which do state they require fm. I listed the top 10 universities for maths according to the Complete University Guide because the OP said the two above I assumed they were aiming for the top 10 which apart from the Scottish unis all state they require fm. As I said statistically those applying for maths degrees to the very top unis usually have further maths.

I agree with Perpetual this is the difference between the top 10 of which the OP's son could choose a possible 5 and those below that in the ranking for maths, still amazing universities but possibly have lower entry grades and possibly don't ask for fm.

He needs maths and further maths if he wants to go for maths.

maths, further maths, physics and economics sounds good - is there another sixth form that can accommodate this?

@Dukeydo He absolutely does not need FM. The original query was RG. Not Cambridge. There’s plenty of maths degrees which would offer him a place without tests and FM. It’s not necessary to go to the top 10. Plenty of others recognise students don’t have fm and offer sessions to bridge the gap. By saying only those with FM can do a maths degree cuts out very good students who would be capable of doing very well on the degree. It’s also just plain wrong.

@HolidayPlansAPlanning

that may be so and congratulations to your son. But the OP specifically said Cambridge and LSE which do state they require fm.

In the opening post, the OP only mentioned RG!

No, he really doesn't. Plenty of top Unis don't have FM as a requirement for their Maths degrees!

Are there no other sixth forms within reach.

Maths physics and economics is such a sensible and obvious combination as a pathway to a high-flying career that a school that won't allow it as a combination is clearly not used to shepherding talented highly skilled numerate pupils towards high flying careers. In your shoes I would be looking elsewhere, including private options, to get a school that will allow this very sensible combination.

If there are reasons why it has to be this specific school then maths physics and business studies isn't too bad but the business studies curriculum won't cover the aspects of finance that a mathematician will find most interesting.

While it’s true that lots of highly rated unis do not specify FM for a maths degree, this, as PP have noted, is often bc some post-16 destinations do not offer it. But for sure it will always be an advantage if you want to study maths at uni. So why not take it?

If you like maths that much that you want to spend three years studying it surely you would want to take FM? I took Further German in sixth for – as in, I sat the special paper, basically bc I wanted to study German and do as much as I could.

BS does cover finance but is allied to running a business. Economics finance is at a government/international level. For a future accountant, BS explains the world of business much more effectively. If he would prefer to work in a business, BS is a good introduction. If he would prefer Economics, Econ A level is better. For anything maths based, eg actuary, a maths degree is a great start and BS really would not be an issue. The only time I would say Economics is the better A level is if DC wants to do Economics for a degree. Clearly a bit of prior knowledge is useful.

There are also degrees such as Economics & Finance. I’ve looked at Sheffield and they want AAA which must include maths. They will even include a native language A level as one of the three! So BS and Physics would hardly be a negative. Moving away from the top unis and looking at courses in more detail will pay dividends when making a choice. RG has such a wide selection!!