Computer Science degree versus a degree apprenticeship

[S1ng1ngSpr1ng]

My son wants to be a software developer and loves coding. The expectation seems to be a Computer Science degree and I’m not seeing why. He hates the theory in Computer Science and I’m not sure what use there would be for it in a developing job. He has seen degree apprenticeships with a different degree you do whilst doing a coding job. Surely that is better. His dad is a software developer and says nobody has ever asked about his degrees just his coding experience. So why the funnelling into a computer science degree? Wondering if I’m missing something but don’t want him to make a horrible mistake. Which would be better or is there not much in it?

Peer to peer contact and support is less on the apprenticeship, as is team work as a group given they have projects related to their specific placements and the scope of their exposure.

How well this works is dependant in the actual learning provider of the apprenticeship and the company supporting it.

The university cohort work together on specific shared projects throughout the course which generally improves results.

You seem pretty set on the apprenticeship so I'll leave it there and wish your son all the best.

That's not our experience. Summer internships and placement years provide great work experience and, as was already mentioned, these often lead to job offers.

Many tech employers actively approach Top ranked University students - they are highly employable.

They’re the top courses for CS precisely because they’re the ones that provide the best skills and employability. It’s not the name, it’s the course content.

Is your DS in year 13 then? What offers did he get through UCAS?

Yes Year 13.Decided not to do UCAS this year as really not keen and has had a lot of interest re apprenticeships which needed his focus. Can always do it another year if needs be or he changes his mind.

“They’re the top courses for CS precisely because they’re the ones that provide the best skills and employability. It’s not the name, it’s the course content.”

Hasn’t been the experience of my husband or what he sees or prioritises at all. Anybody can get internships and enter competitions. Said son has done both off his own back.

Still not seeing the need for funnelling onto a computer science degrees.

Sounds like your mind is made up then, good luck to your son!

In terms of future job prospects, I can't see there will be much difference.

There's other things to consider, of course. A degree apprenticeship is much harder work than a university degree. DS is working at his job 4 days a week, plus a full study day, plus extra study in the evenings. And his study is continuous with very few breaks between modules. Plus his holiday allowance is that of a workplace, rather than long university holidays. I know many university students do have part time jobs while at university and during holidays, but I suspect he is clocking up way more hours than the average student.

Plus, there are advantages to "going to university" in terms of learning social and independent living skills. If you're going away to university that is, and not staying in the family home and commuting.

I work in a Data team and would thoroughly endorse apprenticeships- we have seen some great colleagues coming out of them.

in our case I do think it’s useful to have a grounding in stats and machine learning. But that can be covered in the study element of the apprenticeship, or by coursework in a social sciences degree.

I’d be very careful choosing a c/s degree. What you don’t want is a course that’s been developed off the back of a maths department, and thinks that it’s all about developing mathematical understanding. The number of jobs for that sort of thing (eg cyber security) are tiny compared to the rest of the profession.

DH started off as a programmer and works for a very large IT company. When he started there, they rarely employed anyone without a degree, now about 80% of the workforce comes in through an apprenticeship. He has talked to some of the apprentices who are all very happy to be paid, have everything paid for, and not to be racking up a load of debt.

To be honest there isn't one route that is 'better', it depends on lots of factors and what is best for someone won't be for someone else.

I do disagree with your husband about bootcamps, they're not 'shite', their purpose is to give people without any or much background a very brief insight in order to go on to continue this learning in a junior role or apprentiship- they don't claim to give someone all the training they need. Lots of apprentiships value them for entry, and many are government funded so that's good for people.

I'm not sure why you posted really as you seem so sure about what's best for him, personally I would look into degrees as well and he can make more of an informed decision. I did mine a fair few moons ago and there weren't really alternatives, it has afforded me many opportunities for further studies and areas I wouldn't have been able to access otherwise, but not everyone wants to do that. If he's definitely sure what he wants to do and likes the look of the modules for the degree apprentiships then awesome. As has been said the sector will be changed by automation, having an understanding of the theory and having more strings under your bow (dev roles and coding generally will be the most at risk from automation) isn't a bad thing, but could do this with self funded exams and stuff if needed.

I’m a bit confused about why you posted then. Your DS had already taken the decision not to apply to university, so he’s not being pushed down that path at all? Plus your husband works in the field and says not to bother with a degree. So what were you asking about?

To appear sneery towards those who have degrees in the field I suppose? Doesn't seem to have been much point does there!

No wasn’t meant to be sneery. Genuinely don’t understand why there is the funnelling down the expensive competitive computer science degree route when there are other options. If anything I think the sneering has been towards anything other than a computer science degree from a “top” uni.

I'm not sure what the point of the thread is. If you're so certain that the degree apprenticeship is the best route and that going to uni wouldn't be worth it, then what exactly are you looking for from this thread?

Your ds has made his decision. I hope that it works out for him.

I’m a bit confused about why you posted then. Your DS had already taken the decision not to apply to university, so he’s not being pushed down that path at all? Plus your husband works in the field and says not to bother with a degree. So what were you asking about?

I have to agree - your mind appears to be made up and you're not even considering university degrees, some of which are highly regarded with brilliant job prospects?!

Genuinely don’t understand why there is the funnelling down the expensive competitive computer science degree route

Not sure who's being 'funnelled' but my dc is getting a great education at Imperial College. There are some highly regarded Computer Science courses out there, and they're actually very good value for money given the lab work, the equipment and the job prospects afterwards!

My son's a device and did a degree apprenticeship and it came with many, many advantages.

Only potential.issues
......have to be independent - no halls of residence or fresher weeks. My son moved out and into a hotel for two weeks to start with as he had to wait for a house share room (that he arranged) to come free.
...... study and work curtailed going out somewhat even when he had met a few others doing his apprenticeship (there were about 5 that year), and
.....getting one was EXTREMELY competitive. None of this beefing up your personal statement nonsense - whole days of activities, tests and interviews under watch of those choosing. The exam requirements quoted were not particularly high but I think once that hurdle was reached they didn't worry about grades it was how you preformed in the tests adapted for the recruitment days.

But he loved his course, was paid enough to get no debt during the apprenticeship- he could afford to live in a professional house share with a car, and then he walked straight into a well paid job with the same employer at the end.

My son applied for quite a few and the pay varied but we said we would.pay his rent if he got a low.paid one as we.had to pay his sibling rent when they went to university. Some of his college mates got the lower paid ones but now they are 5 years post starting they all earn similar.

Genuinely don’t understand why there is the funnelling down the expensive competitive computer science degree route when there are other options.

I'm not sure who you think is actually doing the funnelling. I work for a large corporate who currently offers degree apprenticeships in Marketing, Finance and IT.

The marketing ones are most popular, it least popular. There are still nine applications from candidates that we would be glad to give a place to, for every place on the IT stream.

Marketing and Finance are even more oversubscribed.

I would encourage anyone who would be interested in those fields to apply. I would not encourage them to rely on securing a place, having a back up in place in case they are not successful sounds like a very sensible precaution.

I do agree that some academic degrees could, depending on which options are chosen and on the subject of the dissertation, be even more stretching.

In most subjects, though, I would still encourage anyone straight out of school to get done work experience before going into academia If they can get both work experience and a degree in parallel, that sounds perfect.

The high flyers (they are all high flyers) will be perfectly placed to move onto a masters in a few years, quite possibly sponsored by their employer.

My fully sponsored MBA had an amazing impact on my career and my life. I also benefitted from grants for my first and masters degrees.

I would wish the same for everyone who would be interested in taking that path.

am thinking OP hasn't read the same thread I read.

We looked hard at apprenticeships. To get one, DS would have to be a mega-salesman of himself. He would have to do all the hard work of finding somewhere to take him, we didn't find any adverts in our region and DS wasn't keen on moving to a completely strange area by himself at just 18yo. Everything we read about how to secure a higher apprenticeship was methods in how to sell oneself, do cold calls, basically tap into networks & try to convince a company to take him on or even convince them to offer HAs at all. He'd have to prepare a sexy portfolio. many written words of selling himself, & have to interview well. I'm not sure DS will ever have those salesman skills. It will be easier for him to sell self when he's 3-4 years older, and has work experience as well as BSci & specific coding languages to put on his cv.

Wow OP, you’ve really got a thing about me mentioning ‘top universities’. Which I said in the context of being competitive to get into - good degree apprenticeships and top university computer science courses are both very competitive to get into. That’s because a lot of people want to do them. Clearly your DS only wants to go for a degree apprenticeship because he hasn’t even applied for university. No one is being filtered into degrees against their will.

Do you have an issue with having not used your own degree and resenting the time and money? Because this is all weirdly chippy.

I got a master in computer science 20 years ago. If it is where your heart lies and you really want to explore all different angles.. theoretical problems, the interfaces with filosofy, maths, linguistics … maybe invent the programming languages of the future… then go to uni!
If you just want to build programs for companies , handson mentality … then go for the apprenticeship.
It is possible that both roads eventually end up at the same point, but the uni-route will give you a lot more background in my opinion.

I think there's a huge push towards degree apprenticeships, and these are really being sold to students from working class/lower middle class backgrounds where going to uni is becoming a bit of a financial stretch. In the short term, I think they can be a really great option for students.

But I do think there is an issue that students who do these apprenticeships (in any field) miss out on a lot of the "soft" benefits of uni.

I also think a degree apprenticeship ties you to a field pretty rigidly, whereas having a degree in any subject can offer more flexibility in some roles. In some companies (again, not talking about CS specifically here) you can hit a ceiling where suddenly not having a degree (and sometimes not having a postgrad qualification) is suddenly seen as a detriment.

I do think the career trajectories of people in CS will look very different to those who joined the field 15-20 years ago, as well.

You've obviously made your mind up about what will suit your DC, and that's great, but I do think this massive push towards apprenticeships (which is really aimed at some 18yos only) is something to be wary of.

Hi, OP -

I can offer a different perspective on a couple of things that have come up on this thread. I am a STEM at a uni with an excellent CS programme.

The degree offered by the degree apprenticeship programme (which you’ve said is not CS) may well be IT, Data Science, Software Engineering or similar. All good, solid degrees.

If your DS truly dislikes theoretical CS that is a strong point in favour of the degree apprenticeship programme. But how does he know? He doesn’t like his CS A level. But very few unis want a CS A level from their CS applicants. The key A level is Maths (although a few CS programmes do not require Maths, and a few also prefer Further Maths). IMO the CS A level is a bit dire and is not really taught from a theoretical perspective at all. This can make it simultaneously confusing and boring! Your DS might like CS done right more than he could imagine. Or not.

CS gives you a broader perspective than any of the degrees I named above, or similar ones. That isn’t to say that it’s better. It all depends on an individual’s interests.

But let’s take a project many large companies are working on right now: securely moving stored data to the Cloud. Security is the key feature, and there is such a thing as a Cybersecurity degree. So is this the hot degree? Not necessarily. Cyber must integrate with secure software (Software Engineering), and all of this must rest on a foundation of secure hardware (computer architecture). Only a CS degree gives a broad appreciation of the project, although people with specialist degrees definitely make important contributions, under the supervision of computer scientists. Broad experience can, of course, eventually replace that CS degree.

I am by no means unsupportive of the degree apprenticeship. I think young people usually do best where they expect to be happiest. I am only concerned that a poorly designed and unnecessary A level may be playing too great a part in this decision

Edit: I am a STEM academic

The best thing about doing a degree is the student experience. But OP has already made up her mind that a degree isn’t worth it and is very dismissive on people who have them. I have no idea why she even posted. It’s like why does school even matter? If you manage to get good jobs and your experience speaks for yourself, then no one will look at your son’s GCSE or A level results. Does it matter a jolt if he didn’t pass GCSE English or Maths?

It is all pointless arguments.