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Further education

You'll find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further Education forum.

Is it true that clever people go to 6th form and people who aren't go to college

469 replies

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 21/06/2022 21:08

Evening all,

It was always drummed into me that after GCSE`s that if you are intelligent you went to or stayed at school and went to 6th form depending on your previous circumstances.

But if you weren't good enough you went to college instead.

Whats your experience in this area ?

OP posts:
thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/08/2022 21:15

brookstar · 28/08/2022 06:48

Well, I've pointed out a few already in previous posts but ......

Schools - big drivers for schools is funding, destinations and reputation. The more young people in their 6th form the more money they get. The more young people going to a top university as their destination after school, the better their reputation ( rightly or wrongly).
The better their reputation the more applications they get, which leads you back to funding.

Parents - there is lots of research to show that parents are the biggest influence on career and education decisions. There are issues with this though. Parents don't tend to have up to date labour market information so are giving advice based on outdated, often incorrect information.
Parents also tend to their their own education journey is the best one for their child so if they went to university they will encourage their own child to do the same.

There are other factors- such as government policy etc too.

For schools what not have a good record for vocational success ?

If parents are in the workplace they should have knowledge of current employment trends

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brookstar · 29/08/2022 08:18

For schools what not have a good record for vocational success ?

I don't understand what you're asking here.
Schools have to build a reputation and market themselves so that they get students.
Schools will promote their GCSE and A Level grades.
Many will also should about the number of students gaining places at top universities. Not many talk about vocational routes.
It's wrong, I don't agree with it but it helps explain why schools want to keep their high performing students rather than lose them to another institution.

If parents are in the workplace they should have knowledge of current employment trends

They will probably have a good understanding of the sector they work in but very few will understand the labour market as whole.
Their knowledge will often be based on what they experienced which will often be outdated and incorrect. These things change frequently- it's a careers advisers job to have up to date knowledge of the labour market.

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 29/08/2022 18:26

brookstar · 29/08/2022 08:18

For schools what not have a good record for vocational success ?

I don't understand what you're asking here.
Schools have to build a reputation and market themselves so that they get students.
Schools will promote their GCSE and A Level grades.
Many will also should about the number of students gaining places at top universities. Not many talk about vocational routes.
It's wrong, I don't agree with it but it helps explain why schools want to keep their high performing students rather than lose them to another institution.

If parents are in the workplace they should have knowledge of current employment trends

They will probably have a good understanding of the sector they work in but very few will understand the labour market as whole.
Their knowledge will often be based on what they experienced which will often be outdated and incorrect. These things change frequently- it's a careers advisers job to have up to date knowledge of the labour market.

You say that schools need to market themselves as having high GCSE & A-level pass grades which is fair enough.

But how about also promoting good vocational grades, skills etc

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TeenDivided · 29/08/2022 18:39

Schools can't do everything. They aren't big enough, don't have enough pupils, and don't have enough funding. How would a school be able to do all the BTECs there are on offer? They don't even manage the full range of A levels.
Even FE colleges don't all offer all BTECs, hence my DD being at an Agricultural college.
Schools are set up to offer GCSEs & A levels, hence of course they will market themselves based on what they offer.

I really don't understand what you don't understand. Anyone would think you are either arguing for the sake of it, or have a massive chip on your shoulder or (I won't say the third option.)

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 29/08/2022 19:02

TeenDivided · 29/08/2022 18:39

Schools can't do everything. They aren't big enough, don't have enough pupils, and don't have enough funding. How would a school be able to do all the BTECs there are on offer? They don't even manage the full range of A levels.
Even FE colleges don't all offer all BTECs, hence my DD being at an Agricultural college.
Schools are set up to offer GCSEs & A levels, hence of course they will market themselves based on what they offer.

I really don't understand what you don't understand. Anyone would think you are either arguing for the sake of it, or have a massive chip on your shoulder or (I won't say the third option.)

Just having a debate.

What is the 3rd option ?

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TeenDivided · 29/08/2022 19:16

The third option is that you don't seem to be capable of articulating your side of the 'debate'. The vast majority of your posts have been 3 sentences at most. You aren't really engaging with what people are saying, or showing you are taking it in. You just keep batting back with one liners.

Why not try writing say 4 paragraphs explaining your side of the 'debate', what you think is wrong and how you would change it?

The bottom line is currently

  • GCSEs test academics
  • We don't have national tests for soft skills
  • Entry requirements for courses (even vocational ones) post GCSE are primarily GCSE based , bar some art/music courses which are portfolio based
  • A levels tend to have higher GCSE requirements than vocational courses because the academic level is higher
  • School 6th forms are set up to do A levels and a few BTEC certificates
  • In some areas FE colleges are vocational only
  • In other areas everything is colleges
  • So on average less academic pupils will go to college because they can't do A levels so have no choice, whereas more academic pupils can choose either route
BCBird · 29/08/2022 19:21

This is not true at all. I'm a secondary school teacher with nearly 30 years experience.

If a student wants to achieve, provided they have the ability, they will.

I think we hold their hands a bit more at 6th form than they do at further education college.

TeenDivided · 29/08/2022 19:37

A levels tend to have higher GCSE requirements than vocational courses because the academic level is higher

Just to qualify this. To get top grades at BTECs you need to be pretty switched on. The impression I have however is you can pass L3 BTECs more 'easily' than you can pass A levels.

Also however you must remember that colleges provide vocational L2 & L1 courses for those who haven't passed sufficient GCSEs at 4+.

brookstar · 29/08/2022 20:56

You say that schools need to market themselves as having high GCSE & A-level pass grades which is fair enough.

But how about also promoting good vocational grades, skills etc

Well, as I've said multiple times, we know what should happen and we can tell you what is actually happening.....

I'm not sure what your argument is at this point?

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 25/09/2022 23:40

brookstar · 29/08/2022 20:56

You say that schools need to market themselves as having high GCSE & A-level pass grades which is fair enough.

But how about also promoting good vocational grades, skills etc

Well, as I've said multiple times, we know what should happen and we can tell you what is actually happening.....

I'm not sure what your argument is at this point?

Well why not promote both ?

It shows that everyone can succeed ?

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Meili04 · 25/09/2022 23:42

None of our local schools have a sixth form and they go to college which is one of the best in the UK, they do Alevels and t levels..

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 25/09/2022 23:49

Meili04 · 25/09/2022 23:42

None of our local schools have a sixth form and they go to college which is one of the best in the UK, they do Alevels and t levels..

That's good sounds like a well run place.

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thistimeiknowitsforreal · 25/09/2022 23:56

BCBird · 29/08/2022 19:21

This is not true at all. I'm a secondary school teacher with nearly 30 years experience.

If a student wants to achieve, provided they have the ability, they will.

I think we hold their hands a bit more at 6th form than they do at further education college.

Blimey a secondary school teacher admitting this ?

Now i have seen everything

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brookstar · 26/09/2022 07:48

Well why not promote both ?

It shows that everyone can succeed ?

I've told you why multiple times. Which bit are you struggling to understand?

WombatChocolate · 26/09/2022 08:42

TeenDivided, no-one is saying that no-one taking a Btech is academic. No-one is saying they are easier to achieve top grades in or that they are lesser qualifications or should be seen as second rate.

What people are saying (and is borne out by the stats) us that on average (and we all know there are outliers in any comment about averages, as well as most being around the average) those doing A Levels, start them with higher GCSE results than those starting BTECs. Many who choose a BTEC wouldn’t be accepted onto A Levels or not the A Levels they particularly might be interested in or at the institution they want to study them. This doesn’t apply to all, as some choose BTEC over A Level who could do both….but many do t have the choice.

A Levels are examined fully or mostly by exam. With BTEC there is a bigger coursework element. Kids who did really well at GCSE are those who are good at exams and consequently, they are well geared up for A Level, both I. Terms of their knowledge, but also in ability to manage an exam-based form of assessment. People can argue about if this is the best form of assessment or not, but the reality is that both GCSEs and the most taken qualification at 18 are exam-based.

Following on again to the Q about college vs school (if it needed to be seen as a ‘vs’ question) then we know that schools are geared up to do mostly A Levels and some wholly this. Instantly, schools are less suited to those who want to do BTECs and can offer less choice. Instantly, they will attract those suited to taking A Levels and facing assessment through exams…the higher GCSE achievers on average.

Again, yes we know that in some areas if the country there are no school 6th forms and everyone goes to college to do whatever qualification they choose. And again, at those colleges, those doing A Levels will tend to be those with the higher GCSE results - those who are bright in the traditional academic sense of doing well in exams. And in other areas where there are schools and 6th forms, whilst lots of academic students go to college to do A Levels as they prefer that environment, many of those exam-suited students with high GCSEs also stay at school, whilst those who don’t have such good GCSEs tend to move on. Again, I say ‘tend to’ because everyone will know someone who doesn’t fit in with the general trend….but that doesn’t alter the general trend.

It remains a sad fact that often people don’t see BTECs as an equal qualification. Those in the ‘know’ realise that top grades in BTEC can be equivalent to top grades at A Level and that many Uni courses will take them, but many don’t know this. Likewise, many top employers know this, but many don’t. And if you look at those accessing the top graduate training schemes post-21, you mostly find the people who get the places are those with A Levels and those with top A Levels from top unis. And proportionate to those who went to schools or to Sixth Form, in relation to the overall cohort, a bigger proportion did their studies at school. It’s not surprising is it, when schools tend to offer only or mostly A Levels, whilst colleges offer both routes more fully.

I don’t know what the issue or surprise is about Sixth forms in schools ‘holding the hands’ or their students more. When students look at the options, they are always told and understand that school provides a more structured environment, more similar to what they’ve been used to at school, whereas college is different and relies on more self-management and independence. Everyone knows that and people value different aspects of these, which are reflected in their choices. One obvious difference might be that in colleges, you usually don’t have to be in for 8.45 or 9am unless you have a lesson then. In a school, especially in the early days you will have to be. The college student might choose to be there anyway and working, or staying in bed. They have that choice. The school student doesn’t - call that ‘hand holding’ if you want. Some students and parents value that and others want the other approach.

I understand how frustrating it is for people doing BTECs to sometimes feel their qualification isn’t given the weight it deserves. For those getting top grades and those equivalent to top A Levels it’s particularly annoying. We are still at a stage though where this country values ACADEMIC and EXAM BASED and assessed qualifications more. This is the reality still here and those doing A Levels on average results those with higher GCSE grades.

LucyInTheSkyWithDiamond · 26/09/2022 08:52

Growing up, I think it was expected that if you wanted to go to a good university, you stayed at school. I went to a grammar school and stayed there for sixth form. Generally, people leaving school to go to college did vocational courses. Things like beauty or construction or accountancy qualifications. I know someone who became a CA after studying for her qualifications at college. She didn't do a levels AFAIK.

Also, my younger sister had a terrible time at grammar school. She felt pushed into humanities subjects at a level as she wasn't a star pupil at GCSE science. She did one year of a levels, then dropped out of school and went to college to start a levels again but in the subjects she liked. She is now a doctor and probably the most successful person in her career among me and my siblings. Certainly earns well and has a nice lifestyle.

So, I think there are always outliers.

I do wonder if I'd have done better at college tbh as grammar school sixth form was quite stifling. It was single sex and we had to wear uniform even in sixth form. We couldn't go out during free periods and had to stay in the school. I went a bit wild at university and didn't do as well as I could have, although it was a great uni. I do wonder if I'd had a bit more freedom at sixth form I might have calmed down a bit at uni. Funnily enough, my main partners in crime at uni also went to single sex schools for a level. Hadn't realised that till now!

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 26/09/2022 10:04

brookstar · 26/09/2022 07:48

Well why not promote both ?

It shows that everyone can succeed ?

I've told you why multiple times. Which bit are you struggling to understand?

I understand what you say.

But you can always go against convention

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brookstar · 26/09/2022 10:21

But you can always go against convention

I don't work in a school 🤷🏼‍♀️

This is why independent, impartial careers advice is so important.

Schools and colleges will always have multiple drivers when they are looking at recruiting students which won't always play e the students interests first.

Comefromaway · 26/09/2022 10:36

It carries on too.

Advice and support for Btec students to apply for university/conservatoire at my son's college was woeful because they seemed to push everyone towards "staying at home" to do their own HNC/HND

brookstar · 26/09/2022 10:40

Comefromaway · 26/09/2022 10:36

It carries on too.

Advice and support for Btec students to apply for university/conservatoire at my son's college was woeful because they seemed to push everyone towards "staying at home" to do their own HNC/HND

That's a huge issue with FE colleges that also deliver their own HE courses.
Their main priority is getting students to progress to their own courses.

Comefromaway · 26/09/2022 10:56

Luckily for my son my dh attended and now teaches at the type of HE institution ds aspired to (and got a place at). We knew the system and was able to help him navigate it.

His friend missed the early application deadline to conservatoire as his reference was not done in time and ended up applying and gaining a place at a really not very good institution.

He declined and is taking a gap year and my dh (plus a kind knowlegable mumsnetter) is advising him with his application.

Comefromaway · 26/09/2022 11:02

The other thing we found that specifically for the dept ds was part of (performing arts) there were two institutions that market VERY heavily to colleges. Hence an incredible high number of students from ds's college applied to only those institutions (and most gained places) whereas in actual fact they may not have been the most suitable.

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 19/10/2022 20:36

I think it should be compulsory that a practical subject is taken as part of A levels.

Also why aren't more middle class kids being encouraged to take up trades ?

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pointythings · 19/10/2022 20:59

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 19/10/2022 20:36

I think it should be compulsory that a practical subject is taken as part of A levels.

Also why aren't more middle class kids being encouraged to take up trades ?

Oh hell no. Making young people with aptitudes for vocational and technical subjects take academic subjects is bad enough. We should stop it. Let's not compound it by repeating the error in the other direction. My DC each took 3 academic A levels because that was where their interests and aptitudes lay. Forcing them into something vocational would have benefited nobody.

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 19/10/2022 21:00

pointythings · 19/10/2022 20:59

Oh hell no. Making young people with aptitudes for vocational and technical subjects take academic subjects is bad enough. We should stop it. Let's not compound it by repeating the error in the other direction. My DC each took 3 academic A levels because that was where their interests and aptitudes lay. Forcing them into something vocational would have benefited nobody.

Why no it could open up another possibility for them

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