Is it true that clever people go to 6th form and people who aren't go to college

[thistimeiknowitsforreal]

Evening all,

It was always drummed into me that after GCSE`s that if you are intelligent you went to or stayed at school and went to 6th form depending on your previous circumstances.

But if you weren't good enough you went to college instead.

Whats your experience in this area ?

There were two kids from my school who went to sixth form and ended up at the same uni as me. Both left in the first term. I suspect it was too much of a leap having basically stayed at school until 18 then going straight to uni

What?! That's what the majority of university students do

My school drummed it in that thickos went to college and no one would care about your attendance if you went. Absolute crap. I did a year of 6th form and changed to college and they were much hotter on attendance, had more time for you and actually had a proper careers officer unlike my school where it was basically your tutor.
I went to uni afterwards and have a good job, steady income etc. I'm 37 so things might have changed since!

Why do you think school`s do that ?

To keep their best pupils obviously.

And get rid of the numb skulls ?

Snobbery in action i guess

It's a bit more complicated than 'snobbery'.

It's to do with finance, retention, results, reputation.

Schools with 6th forms can have a huge issue with impartiality when it comes to post 16 options. Which is why impartial, independent careers guidance is important.

How is careers guidance important ?

How is careers guidance important ?

Really??

Careers guidance helps people make informed choices and decisions. It needs to be impartial so that the choices being made are right for the individual and aren't being influenced by schools needing numbers for 6th form for example.

@thistimeiknowitsforreal 6th forms get extra funding the more pupils they have.
To get rid of 'numb skulls' they've already done that by setting a minimum grade to get onto the course. No 6th form will let you do physics A Level if you got an E at gcse.

Proper careers advise is important so you
Know what paths are available to train/qualify for the job/career you want and to suit your learning style if applicable. Or if you want a certain job that's reaching a bit high for you, they can help you look into jobs in a similar field more on your level.

Schools with 6th forms can have a huge issue with impartiality when it comes to post 16 options. Which is why impartial, independent careers guidance is important.

I'm not entirely sure that's true. Our school has two dedicated careers advisers and I've not noticed a lack of impartiality. They do the Morrisby profiling in year 10 and discuss career options on the back of that.

It's a private school that has no issue filling sixth form places which perhaps means a lower risk of selling A levels to put bums on seats. But it's also the case at our local state schools.

6th form is a college, just in a school setting

Schools within the town I live don’t have a sixth form, there’s one central sixth form college which is fed by the 4 high schools. My dc is staying on at their school sixth form (they bus to the next town for school). The school however does ask for higher grade GCSE’s than the local sixth form does to be able to enrol, they also offer more Alevel subjects than the sixth form college too.

No, it really isn't.
Colleges tend to be far larger with a wider range of options. They generally don't have a uniform or require 'suits'. They are detached from schools so don't have familiarity of setting or teachers. The teachers only teach A levels / BTECs / resits, not KS3&KS4. Pastoral care tends to be different. Pupils are more free to be themselves without wondering about influence on younger pupils. Pupils can come and go more easily and only need to be there for their own lessons.

Though why I keep getting drawn back to this ridiculous thread is beyond me.

It depends on the type of cleverness. Some people are clever academically with figures and writing essays et cetera. Some people are clever at business. Some people are clever with their hands in that they can strip down a car engine or build a brick wall. It was that idiot Tony Blair who reckoned that everyone should go to university but that is simply not the case for everyone. What some people need is a good apprenticeship and to work from college. It depends on what type of intelligence you have

So why then don`t more grammar school pupils or a level students go on to do more practical vocations ?

So why then don`t more grammar school pupils or a level students go on to do more practical vocations ?

Lots of reasons.
Pressure from school
Pressure from parents
The narrative around academic vs Vocational qualifications
The lack of information given to you people about vocational education
Poorly funded careers education and guidance

Pressure from school ? so snobbery
Pressure from parents ? so snobbery
Narrative ? that is sad that it exists in that form
Lack of information ? clearly careers advice isn`t fit for purpose
Poor funding ? see above

Pressure from school ? so snobbery
Pressure from parents ? so snobbery

As I've said before, it's far more complicated.

Narrative ? that is sad that it exists in that form

It is, which is why good quality careers guidance is really important.

Lack of information ? clearly careers advice isn`t fit for purpose

Again, not that straightforward. It's absolutely linked to funding.

Poor funding ? see above

Which is why we need to lobby the government to properly fund careers education and guidance.

I'm a qualified careers adviser with a masters in careers guidance and a PhD focussing on career decision making behaviour of young people.

Just saying 'snobbery' ignores the whole host of factors that influence career and education decisions.

Schools with 6th forms can have a huge issue with impartiality when it comes to post 16 options. Which is why impartial, independent careers guidance is important.

Couldn't agree more - DD decided to go to college instead of school sixth form and has been hassled at various points to stay at school, told that she's too clever (college sends kids to Oxbridge and RG every year and school had 0 Oxbridge offers this year), that college wouldn't be right for her (without actually asking what she wants to study and after ignoring her request for a session with the careers adviser). They were even trying to get her to enrol for sixth form when she went in to get her GCSE results, despite the fact that she and I have both told them more than once that she's not staying on. Weird.

That's disappointing but not entirely surprising.
Schools and colleges now have a legal obligation to ensure that all pupils are informed about all possible options - it's called The Baker Clause. Ofsted are definitely asking schools to prove how they meet this.

Hm well they were only mentioning the one option unfortunately. No Ofsted here though, may be different under Estyn.

I admit there is more than snobbery at play on the first two points what would you say are the factors ?

True. Although they do still have a requirement to provide independent,impartial careers education and guidance.
However, the statutory requirements do differ between the home nations.

Well, I've pointed out a few already in previous posts but ......

Schools - big drivers for schools is funding, destinations and reputation. The more young people in their 6th form the more money they get. The more young people going to a top university as their destination after school, the better their reputation ( rightly or wrongly).
The better their reputation the more applications they get, which leads you back to funding.

Parents - there is lots of research to show that parents are the biggest influence on career and education decisions. There are issues with this though. Parents don't tend to have up to date labour market information so are giving advice based on outdated, often incorrect information.
Parents also tend to their their own education journey is the best one for their child so if they went to university they will encourage their own child to do the same.

There are other factors- such as government policy etc too.