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Further education

You'll find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further Education forum.

Original poster

College recommend dropping 4th A level

54 replies

Candleabra · 06/09/2021 22:51

I know the "3 or 4 a levels" discussion are done to death, but would appreciate some advice.

DD has just started college doing maths, further maths, comp science and chemistry. They're now pushing her to drop one within two weeks.

All students are pushed to do this as there is "no benefit to doing 4 A levels". This was not mentioned at application time!

DD enjoys all the subjects and I'm sure she'll be able to cope with the workload. 9 in each subject for GCSE. Probably will do maths at university so the maths/FM combo is a must. But worried only one other subject would rule out other options.

I'm not very happy with the college pushing this so early. Is there a reason (other than wasted time) that they need everyone to drop a subject within two weeks?

OP posts:
FortunesFave · 06/09/2021 22:53

How do you know all students are pushed to do this?

Original poster
Candleabra · 06/09/2021 22:56

@FortunesFave

How do you know all students are pushed to do this?
Well I don't I suppose, good point. That's what my daughter said (from a straw poll of her friends). The vast majority of the kids do 3 apparently. Sorry if the opening message sounded a but weird. The discussion was sprung upon me at bedtime with an "I need to drop an a level by the end of the week" so I wasn't sure if it was standard or not. Most people I was at school with did two more on top of maths and FM but maybe that's not the case now.
OP posts:
FortunesFave · 06/09/2021 23:09

Did she indicate how she felt about it? She might want to but be nervous of mentioning it.

Personally I'd leave it up to her. Tell her that she can choose...I have a 17 year old so do understand this weird age where they're kids but not really kids.

threesenoughthanks · 06/09/2021 23:15

My daughter has just finished her A levels. She did Maths Further Maths Business Studies and Art. From day one the Head of Year pressured her to drop one. She was just very stubborn and said she wanted to do all four. Her actual subject teachers encouraged her to work hard and stick to the four.
Maybe if she wanted to stick with the four she could push back a little bit and say she wanted to at least try for a full term.

threesenoughthanks · 06/09/2021 23:17

Agree with pp though it has to be 100% up to her.

Original poster
Candleabra · 06/09/2021 23:18

She wants to do all four. But would probably go along with dropping one if she had to (she wouldn't be the sort to push herself forward and insist on doing 4 which is why I'm wondering if I should be instead). I definitely wouldn't push her to do anything she didn't want to do.

I've been very hands off in the whole college application really, perhaps more than I should have due to family illness and responsibilities elsewhere.

Part of the concern is mine that I'm now wondering if I should have done more to help look at other colleges (she only applied to one as the nearest).

OP posts:
threesenoughthanks · 06/09/2021 23:23

It's so hard to get the balance right between helping and letting them choose their own path. I think it's better to leave them to it and feel guilty about whether you should have done more than to over interfere.
Maybe you could have a chat with someone at the college to ask about the whole two week thing and how flexible they are on that.

Choccyp1g · 06/09/2021 23:26

If she is really good at maths, she could drop Maths and keep Further Maths. My DS did 4, and the teacher used to let them do their FM homework in the ordinary maths lesson.

moanymyrtle · 06/09/2021 23:32

DC college is same about pushing 3 but this doesn’t apply to FM which is usually done as 4th subject. I found the teachers who knew dc well were fine with them doing 4 when I asked them direct and often didn’t even realise they were doing 4 as their grades weren’t affected. DS1 would have ended up dropping the wrong subject if pushed to do it this early so it’s worth waiting. I would think most of FM group would be doing 4

Moonlaserbearwolf · 06/09/2021 23:39

Two weeks is hardly long enough to know which subject to drop! I’d push back and ask for a bit more time.
I started doing 4 Alevels 20 years ago because I couldn’t decide which 3 to choose. Ended up doing all 4 for a year and then dropping 1 at the end of lower 6th. I didn’t drop the one I had expected to drop, so in my case it was worth waiting!
Also, I would argue that your DD’s choice of subjects lends itself to studying 4. Further maths was the most common choice for a 4th a-level in my college, only reserved for the best maths students. If your DD is enjoying and coping with 4 I would fight for her to continue and complete the first year - then she’ll have a good idea if she can sustain all of them for a-level.
I would be wary that the college has ulterior motives - if lots of children have chosen 4 subjects are they struggling with teacher capacity? I can’t think of another reason why they would be desperate for everyone to drop their 4th after just 2 weeks. At least give it a term!

Comefromaway · 06/09/2021 23:49

Maths & Further Maths is the exception to the no point in doing 4 mantra.

It’s too early to drop one.

Ellewoods20 · 06/09/2021 23:49

She should stick with 4 if she’s doing further maths and can manage 4. Some universities don’t class Maths and further Maths as separate subjects (course dependent). In that case, dropping one could disadvantage her.

raspberryrippleicecream · 07/09/2021 01:20

DS has just completed his 4 A levels, Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Music. She should definitely keep the four.

I do remember school saying early on that by half term they should have settled on their final courses.

larkstar · 07/09/2021 01:38

As @Ellewoods20 said - quite a few universities treat Maths and Further maths as a single subject. I teach them.

MarchingFrogs · 07/09/2021 08:06

If she is really good at maths, she could drop Maths and keep Further Maths.

Surely that would only be an option if 'dropping' Maths at the end of year 12 because the school / college policy was to cover the full syllabus in, and sit the A level at the end of, that year? Do you have institutions locally who allow FM to be taken from the outset without Maths? No sixth form around us would allow that.

R0tational · 07/09/2021 08:10

Sorry, I am a bit out of it... are AS levels not a thing anymore?

FatJan · 07/09/2021 09:06

In any other circumstance I'd say drop, because if she is made an AAB offer and gets AABB, a lot of universities will consider her to have not met the offer (others will be more flexible).

However, as others have said, maths as further maths is different. Some universities view having one other (non maths) A level as not demonstrating a breadth of ability on the part of the student.

FatJan · 07/09/2021 09:06

ABBB the above should say

Comefromaway · 07/09/2021 09:28

@R0tational

Sorry, I am a bit out of it... are AS levels not a thing anymore?
No, they have been abolished in all but a very few subjects and those are also being phased out.
Original poster
Candleabra · 07/09/2021 10:09

Two weeks is hardly long enough to know which subject to drop! I’d push back and ask for a bit more time.

Yes I thought that. My suggestion to DD was to wait until Xmas and see how it goes. She said they have been asked to commit after 2 weeks with no option to drop later. (Whether that is literally true is another matter). I wondered if this was a teacher capacity, timetabling thing? Or is there a funding element at play? No idea.

OP posts:
Original poster
Candleabra · 07/09/2021 10:11

@larkstar

As *@Ellewoods20* said - quite a few universities treat Maths and Further maths as a single subject. I teach them.
Is that true? I thought it was a completely separate a level. Another worry if so.
OP posts:
pinkflask · 07/09/2021 10:14

At my college we have a two-week period to change courses - in reality this is nearly always long enough to know whether you’re suited to a subject or not.

4 A levels is the exception but FM doesn’t really count as a fourth so is recommended for able, Maths/Science focussed students. V high achieving students in other areas are also asked if they want to do 4 (they would have 8s and 9s). However it’s true that the majority do 3. But if a student is willing and able to do 4 then there’s no issue with that at all.

Original poster
Candleabra · 07/09/2021 10:54

At my college we have a two-week period to change courses

I can understand any course changes being required quickly as starting a new a level at half term would be a nightmare. I wonder if DD has gotten the wrong end of the stick.
I can't see the rush to actually drop an A level of you're not going to replace it.

OP posts:
moanymyrtle · 07/09/2021 11:07

FM has half the timetabled time at DS college compared to other A levels. So Maths and FM is like doing 1.5 A levels on the timetable. All unis my DC applied to offered on 3 A levels and the grade of 4th would not have affected if met the offer. DS was very high achieving so his teachers told him to ignore the 'advice' from senior staff and stick to 4 if he wanted but to drop one if it affected his grades (it didn't). DS completed much of his maths work in class so had less homework than in other subjects and no coursework so found it fine. It is more of an issue where there are several essay / coursework heavy subjects. I am sure the school will let drop it down the line if grades start to be affected.

MarchingFrogs · 07/09/2021 11:46

@R0tational

Sorry, I am a bit out of it... are AS levels not a thing anymore?
DS2 (just left school) did AS levels in 2020 (well, didn't, actually, but you know what I mean) and as far as I am aware, the school still does them now.

My comment was re my assuming that the suggestion was that it would be possible to drop Maths - I took that to mean no longer taking it as a subject in year 12 (as the OP's post was à propos their DD dropping a subject 2 weeks onto that year) - whilst doing A level FM as a single maths option. I've never heard of any school / college allowing that.