College recommend dropping 4th A level

[Candleabra]

I know the "3 or 4 a levels" discussion are done to death, but would appreciate some advice.

DD has just started college doing maths, further maths, comp science and chemistry. They're now pushing her to drop one within two weeks.

All students are pushed to do this as there is "no benefit to doing 4 A levels". This was not mentioned at application time!

DD enjoys all the subjects and I'm sure she'll be able to cope with the workload. 9 in each subject for GCSE. Probably will do maths at university so the maths/FM combo is a must. But worried only one other subject would rule out other options.

I'm not very happy with the college pushing this so early. Is there a reason (other than wasted time) that they need everyone to drop a subject within two weeks?

Also never come across anywhere allowing Maths to be dropped after actually obtaining the AS level, whilst FM was continued on its own.

One of the big changes with AS levels is that they are now standalone. So whereas before you were examined in certain topic at AS level then other topics the following year at A level now in the subjects that are available you are examined in everything again at A level.

@Candleabra usually there is no benefit to doing more than 3 A levels, exceptions are, applying to US universities or doing further maths as the 4th A level.

I think this may come down to funding and I believe that further maths comes under a different funding category so is the reason it can be offered as a 4th A level without funding issues. As it seems to be a blanket statement from the college I would get your DD or yourself to challenge making your DD drop an A level as this early stage.

A very few number of courses would not consider maths, further maths and one other subject to show a wide enough ability range for a degree, I believe medicine at some universities hold this view.

Ds is 18 and did maths, further maths, computer science and physics. I will be honest, Ds used his free periods (5 hours a week) to get all his work done, rarely did any at home as it was all completed in class or in sixth form.

His timetable was down as maths and further maths for year 12 but what they actually did was all 2 years worth of A level maths content in those 2 time slots in year 12. He sat the AS past paper by Christmas meaning they had done an entire year by then. He got an A*, however there were some students who got Es. They were all informed where they were but also given statistics of what the class got (no names though) so they knew how they were comparing against their cohort.

Half the class had dropped further maths to concentrate on maths by the end of year 12 as they had started further maths by then too having finished the maths syllabus. The pace was set by the class's ability to learn. Mind you they had incredible teachers.

I should have added that both maths and further maths exams would have been sat at the end of year 13.

Thanks for everyone's input. Another chat with DD required (and not at bedtime this time!)

There are only 4 people doing further maths so I understand why she's getting mixed messages.

If necessary I'll have a chat with the college.

His timetable was down as maths and further maths for year 12 but what they actually did was all 2 years worth of A level maths content in those 2 time slots in year 12.

This is what happened when I did a levels. DD is doing them as two separate subjects in parallel. Any idea why this would be preferable? (it seems odd to me as surely you need the maths a level as a building block for FM).

Ask university admission tutors for courses she might like. They are more than happy to discuss and they don’t take your name etc

@Candleabra

His timetable was down as maths and further maths for year 12 but what they actually did was all 2 years worth of A level maths content in those 2 time slots in year 12.

This is what happened when I did a levels. DD is doing them as two separate subjects in parallel. Any idea why this would be preferable? (it seems odd to me as surely you need the maths a level as a building block for FM).

At DS school, they had always already covered the topics in Further maths by the time they reached them in ordinary maths, so he really could have skipped all the maths lessons with no detriment. My point about dropping maths was a bit jokey, but the thing is, if she is good enough to do FM, the ordinary maths should be a breeze, so the school should let her start all four.

I'd be (quietly) spitting chips on this one. A good FM candidate - sounds like she is one - will do well with those subjects. If anything changes about her aspirations having chemistry will keep sciences open but comp science complements her maths interests.

What I would be checking though, is what support the college can offer to preparing her for maths entry tests if required. If they can't give an answer you and your daughter like the sound of, I'd be checking with any other reachable 6tb form options to see if their maths teaching is stronger and if they can take a transfer in ASAP.

Definitely make sure your daughter is clear that she only drops a subject if she herself wants to and is certain.

(DOI son doing FM, will probably drop one subject sooner or later but thats because the top maths set has been allowed to try 4 subjects counting maths/fm as only one. He'll probably end up with @raspberryrippleicecream 'S DC'S set of maths FM physics and music)

@GrasswillbeGreener yes I am even more annoyed now after I spoke to DD last night.
Her interviewer told her to drop FM, which considering DD wants to do maths at uni is not just an opinion on breadth of subjects but actually wrong.
As far as I can see, if a college offers FM it's pretty much a mandatory pre requisite for a maths degree. Plus she'd be mega behind everyone else.

Anyway, DD doesn't want me to get involved but I've emailed the college this morning for clarity. DD is saying she'll just drop chemistry, which is her taking the line of least resistance. I understand it from her point of view, but I'm so disappointed that the college aren't being more encouraging.

What I would be checking though, is what support the college can offer to preparing her for maths entry tests if required. If they can't give an answer you and your daughter like the sound of, I'd be checking with any other reachable 6tb form options to see if their maths teaching is stronger and if they can take a transfer in ASAP.

And yes that's a good point. The whole situation is ringing major alarm bells. As I said earlier, the FM class is tiny, and this is a big college. So maybe they want to get everyone to drop it to free up teaching time? I also don't think the college are set up for Oxbridge for example. I've checked on their website and they've had no successful applicants in the last couple of years.

Not that DD will necessarily want to apply, but the entry requirements are high for all the good unis, and it just feels there is no ambition to excel or reach potential. I guess this is an example that not all bright kids will thrive anywhere. I've asked DD about a transfer to another college but she's adamant she won't (teenagers!). I'll see what the college say.

I just feel so guilty that I haven't been more involved before. None of the open days happened due to covid and we just submitted her application to the nearest college assuming she'd be fine if she worked hard. We've had a horrible few years with close family illnesses, bereavements etc and I've been tied up with juggling a million things, caring responsibilities and lost in grief myself. It's a wonder DD passed any GCSEs at all to be honest.

It has taught her resilience and independence (as people keep telling me!) but you can have too much of certain life lessons in my opinion, especially at a young age.

Does she have the option of continuing one subject as an evening class? That’s what I did when I couldn’t take the 4 that I wanted at 6th form. (That was a long time ago mind)

I remember being told by the adult scientists when we did the college rounds, that one science on its own isn't very useful. Might help your argument.

That sounds scarily likely to be the wrong environment for her, sadly. Have you any good independent 6th forms (schools or stand alone) in range? I ask not because they would necessarily be able to take her, but because they might be able to give her access to extension and uni preparation maths work with their own students. Or make (and potentially support) other suggestions.

Don't hesitate to do your own finding out "behind your daughter's back" so to speak. If you don't find anything that will help, she doesn't need to know, but you know you've done what you can. If you do find something that sounds promising, then tell your daughter about it and take it from there.

Please don't feel guilty! We all drop balls all the time because there's so much we juggle, and it sounds like you've all done well to hold even the basics together.

Do feel free to message me if you get stuck, I might be able to help support on the maths side of things.

I didn’t have time to explain last time.
If you go on the UCAS website you can cross ref her a levels with suitable courses and pick say three courses that she might like/is eligible for and then ring the admissions tutors for those courses and ask what they think of her dropping course situation. How would affect her applications? and you’d have your answer. They are normally very happy to discuss with you and your DC. They don’t take notes on what you say generally.
We had to do this because college advice was often out of date and wrong, plus everything has changed recently
so the only opinion that really matters is if the admissions think it will help her get on the course she wants or not.
It’s useful even if she’s going for a gap year. Or decides not to go to uni at all but a high level paid apprenticeship. It will give a more accurate opinion on A-level situation than college ever could.
Also Ucas website is very useful, particularly if as you say, you haven’t had much opportunity to get up to speed with things, it’s all there and up to date and you can even tweet them for a quick reply.
Can’t remember if she’s in 61 or 62 but if it’s six 1 start exploring where she might want to go and get info now rather than cramming decision making into 62 which is busier. All the open days seem to be at the same time.
If she’s in 62 then competitive uni applications go in early, generally before half term. College needs time to process applications and will or should have a timetable up on their website. Dont get caught out with deadlines they are often earlier than you expect. Good luck to both you and your daughter. There’s always more than one route around these things and I hope you find one that suits her.

My dd went to a 6th form college and did 4, FM, maths, physics and a fourth non-science subject.
Where she was at a lot did 4 , but the 4 would be including maths and further maths . She managed the 4 fine, there was a lot of overlap in the maths and physics.

If anything students tended to drop FM after the 1st year if they were struggling.

FM is definitely useful for a student wanting to do degree level maths. If she can manage 4 , why not.

If she's certain she wants to study Maths then it's reasonable to drop Chemistry; but if she's not certain, she'll have a very limited options for Uni.

Just another thought on maths degree, have a look at the top unis for maths and see what entrance exam they want an applicant to sit. There is a lot to be said for completing a test in the November of year 13 to know once and for all that you have passed it and have an offer based on that pass as opposed to sitting STEP in the summer of year 13, achieving the grades but missing out on the firm uni place due to the entrance exam. MAT and TMUA are sat in the November I believe.

Also if she decides she doesn't want to do maths at uni if she has already dropped chemistry it might reduce her options down. All things to consider.

@l2b2

If she's certain she wants to study Maths then it's reasonable to drop Chemistry; but if she's not certain, she'll have a very limited options for Uni.

Definitely, that's what I'm worried about.

Just another thought on maths degree, have a look at the top unis for maths and see what entrance exam they want an applicant to sit

Thanks for this, I've had a quick look. Do you have to study and pay for these exams yourself, or is this something that the school/college might help with?

@GrasswillbeGreener and @DuckbilledSplatterPuff
Thank you both for your long and helpful messages.
I've emailed the college so I'll see what they say.
I've also suggested DD speaks to the people in her further maths class to see what they're planning to do. She doesn't know many people yet and all her friends are doing arts/humanities/languages so are missing the point about the maths/FM nuance.

Just posting to say I am sorry that the college are not being more supportive.

I did M, FM , Ph & history at A level. Certainly when I took those subjects in the 80's and went on to study Maths at Uni there was no suggestion that Maths and FM were the same A level or similar. They were different. I suppose a little bit like Classics and latin. I was predicted to do better in FM, than maths.

I now work in a school - but non-teaching. We offer Further maths, timetabled separately but really quite an add-on to other subjects. Such a shame really. We offer it, it is well taught, our students do well and go onto cracking unis - often to do engineering rather than Maths. I do wonder if it is a funding issue. I am a Data Manager and post-16 funding is beyond surreal.

My DS had the same 4 subjects. He dropped chemistry at the end of Y12 and had no trouble getting offers at uni with only 3 including maths and FM. (But for a maths degree) Chemistry is a good facilitating subject but unless she wants to do a chemistry degree it’s the obvious one to drop. Computing will be useful in a maths degree as DS has already found.

But it’s too early to decide which to drop. Give it until Christmas or even Easter preferably.

The college have said they will reassess at 5 weeks following a review with Dd's subject teachers.
They said they offer an EPQ to everyone which is instead of the fourth a level and a well regarded qualification for the universities. DD doesn't want to do an EPQ. I don't know much about it.