MFL and native speakers

[IrmaFayLear]

Dd is considering A Level French. Should she?

Because, as I suspected, from the Ofqual website:

we know from anecdotal evidence that there are concerns about the potential impact of native speakers on A level MFL results. In particular, there are concerns that the number of native speakers is increasing and that, as a result, students for whom the MFL is a second language are being disadvantaged.

There were other details about how half of those gaining A* were native speakers, and they were heavily impacting the grade boundaries. This is serious stuff for dd, who is quite ambitious.

Yes, I wondered if that would be the case. I did A levels in the mid 80s. Literature was a big part of the exam, from what I remember. There was a lot of translation too, both ways. Every grammatical or spelling mistake you were docked a mark. It was more academic but less communicative, I suppose. I liked the mathematical element of languages, the patterns and the grammar. I wasn’t very interested in real life communicative skills. In fact, there was very little speaking and listening altogether compared to the other sections.

At university it’s a blend of skills. Yes, essays are written in English but you have to read the books in the target language. Most top universities require this in depth so the linguistics side comes into every aspect of work, except writing essays. However a better understanding of what you are reading and choices of options can greatly help the native speaker in tailoring their degree to their life experiences.

People won’t declare anything! Getting ahead of others and using your skills is just part of life! We have seen many more workers from abroad in the last 15-20 years and this has impacted MFL. Nothing has really been done about it because the Brits don’t value MFL and the universities want bums on seats and the best candidates!

One advantage of MFL is that most universities (not even Oxford when I last looked) want an A*. If they did, they wouldn’t get so many applicants. In fact it’s perfectly ok to do MFL with much lower grades at some universities.

I wouldn’t put anyone off but it can be dispiriting. My cleaner’s DD left her Spanish course due to feeling inferior and they couldn’t afford to go to Spain at all. Ever. My DD did well but she’s tough!

Not really thought about this. Dd doing A level French and on track to get a very good grade. She is a non native speaker.

Same here, Daisypond. The past was another country as far as MFL A Levels are concerned - I really enjoyed learning the grammar and fiddling around with all the constructions, but was absolutely paralysed if I had to speak!

I read the Ofqual report on MFL native speakers which said that MFLs were never intended as an easy pass for those who could already speak the language, and they could not have foreseen the situation where populations are more mobile and therefore there are so many hidden and not-so-hidden candidates for whom it's not really a foreign language at all.

Dd is still undecided. Like me, she is good at the grammar and would enjoy the film/literature elements. Also like me and 99% of British people with no element of native speaking background, she speaks French like the Queen! (I believe Scottish people naturally have far better accidents... that pesky Auld Alliance!)

Interestingly my step dad did an A level in his first language. He was always being told to correct his pronunciation as he has a strong regional accent in his language (think the wurzels vs RP for an idea of the contrast). So I guess speaking a language and meeting exam criteria are not necessarily the same.

What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?

I cannot imagine any employer being at all impressed by that.

Of course if it's hidden, they would definitely get away with it.

My daughter is bilingual and if she thought for one second that I'd let her get away with that kind of nonsense, she'd have another think coming.

they [Ofqual} could not have foreseen the situation where populations are more mobile and therefore there are so many hidden and not-so-hidden candidates for whom it's not really a foreign language at all.

Interesting - though now that it's arisen, the real question is how to address it. Does the Ofqual report talk about the possibility of using criteria referencing rather than norm referencing for mfls - at least in cases where there is a high proportion of native speakers taking the exam (afair the proportion in the highest was nearly 20% of candidates - but some time since I read the report!)?

"What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?"

I wonder if there's any research into whether you're more likely to get a first in those circumstances? If you're going to university primarily to get "a degree" (and many students quite reasonably are) then it might make sense, especially if there's nothing else you're particularly desperate to study.

What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?

Do you wonder why English people study English at university? A language at degree level is so much more than the nuts and bolts of the actual language.

Agree, I wouldn't consider it any more odd than a native English speaker studying English Language/Literature or American Studies. If they take up a language Ab Initio at degree level the pace of learning can be quite accelerated.

It is different from studying English; for a start what is the point of doing the year abroad?! Imagine, for example, your own dc studying English and spending time with a random family in Swindon to immerse themselves in the language - and going on tourist trips to Windsor Castle etc!

Actually I was talking to someone today whose dd did French & Spanish at Surrey. She said quite a few were native speakers and were there, as SoonerthanIthought observes, simply because it was an easy ride to do well. Some were even from Spain doing Spanish .The dd said that they irritated the hell out of the non-native speaker students as their engagement was minimal. I guess the university doesn't care as long as they've filled a place with a paying customer.

Agree with Iamalways. My children are billingual. I would be very disappointed if they chose to study French at an English university; total wasted opportunity. If they chose to study French literature at a French university, that would be different.

even native speakers have to learn.
usually the spoken language at home is informal and of limited vocabulary unless it's massively pushed at home/saturday school.

The native speakers I know are actually teachers and their children had a massive advantage. It certainly wasn’t chat. MFL students are thin on the ground in all but the top tier universities. They need the bums on seats or they close departments. I certainly heard about cut backs when DD was looking 10 years ago! It’s dog eat dog for the best MFL students and yes, DD did believe it was easier for those with native speaker parents to get a first for the reasons I outlined above. A MFL degree isn't just speaking! It’s about immersing in the culture. If you have done this from the age dot, you have an advantage.

My friend (we are over 60) did an MFL degree and she has a German Mum. She went to Germany every summer. She even did her year abroad staying with her granny! Working in their German company. Quite frankly, that’s a shoe in for a great degree for minimal effort. It’s not new but it’s a problem. How are these students to be identified and asked to do a different course when we know universities need them.?

Ha ha, as if it's the same as studying English Literaure as a native English speaker.

Nobody mentioned English Literature, it was Language, which lots of native English speakers read at university. I'm really not sure what is so funny or ludicrous about that?

"Agree, I wouldn't consider it any more odd than a native English speaker studying English Language/Literature or American Studies"

Yes they did.

And it is totally different to studying English Language too.

The depth of study cannot even begin to be compared.

In MFL, you're learning very basic stuff, analysing a few texts, maybe studying a little of the history. English Language goes way deeper than that.

It can be an issue but I wouldn't say it's an issue for french. Subjects like Russian, Polish and mandarin are certainly more skewed.

If she wants to do french, let her do it. Don't worry about grade boundaries being skewed. It was the best thing I ever studied at school; I gained a skill and a lifelong love of languages through it. I've worked abroad in several countries and im now a doctor. It's changed my life immeasurably and it's harder than being raised bilingually but you do get there.

I shudder to think how different my life would've been had I taken any other a level subject as they just wouldn't have opened the doors french has.

when I was in school 2 mfls were mandatory (not uk).
from year 10 (after studying the language for 5 or 6 years) mfl was the same as the mothertongue - mainly literature.

Yes I mentioned literature as most English degrees offer modules of both (and am an English graduate!). You can do placements overseas with many degrees now, even English, and pick a country according to your language skills. Studying or working in Australia, NZ or US for example is not untypical. I would imagine a year in a Spanish speaking South American country would be rather different to mainland Spain, but could still benefit a native speaking Spanish undergrad. Dd has studied her mfl literature part of A level course in same depth as for an English Lit A level (and writes the essays about it in that language) but it is only a proportion of overall grade. The main advantage to a native speaker would be faster recall of vocab and grammar, and breadth of expression.

and yes op absolutely let her take french if she wants to.
it will do her a world of good.

tbh I don't understand the reluctance in uk to study languages. seems very narrow minded to me.

What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?

Lots of people study English. OK it's mainly literature but, depending on the course may have linguistics too.

Maybe there should be 2 qualifications, one aimed at native speakers? Correct me if I am wrong but don't some GCSEs or iGCSEs do that?

There are very many people on French degrees who are native speakers. The French have married Brits for a long time!

However, I too would still say do a MFL A level or two and a degree. DD found the degree was brilliant and her university had world wide exchanges for MFL grads. She chose two universities which suited her, but South America was available for Spanish and Portuguese as was Reunion Island and Canada for French. I think the Brits need to be more outward looking and a year abroad is a great addition to the cv.

sashh: depends who will admit to being a native speaker. My friend that I described above has a British surname. Her mum does sound very German. The universities never know and the schools would have to make judgements and they won’t because it affects league tables.

"Maybe there should be 2 qualifications, one aimed at native speakers?"

Yes I think ideally that would be the case, but it would be so difficult to define a native speaker - there's such a broad spectrum. The ofqual report from 2017 is very interesting - it's on their website.