A-level: How much harder is Further maths than regular maths?

[lljkk]

or is FM more like parallel level of difficulty, rather than the next stage on of difficulty? I'm asking after a conversation about when do people hit their 'ceiling' with math, wondering if FM is just a bit harder or much harder than regular maths so more likely someone could hit their ceiling with it.

Hoping NobleG is around & I'll get her attention. Thanks in Advance.

I appreciate that many students taking physics at Oxford will have further maths A level, but it is definitely not an entrance requirement.

I would be amazed if more than a handful who successfully complete the first year don't have it, and they will all be "could obviously have done it in terms of ability, but didn't for very clear and unfixable reasons". You could ask, they might know the answer, they might be willing to tell you.

It may be a disadvantage not to have it when it comes to study, but that's another matter.

Based on having a child at Oxford who didn't have a particular A Level that wasn't a requirement, or indeed an obvious pair, but which most of her cohort in fact did have, "you're not bloody joking".

I think if someone is looking at studying a maths/physics/engineering type subject they are at a disadvantage if they don't do FM even if it's not a requirement.

"Just to say OP if she's aiming for medicine, might be worth checking out whether the university will accept FM. A few years ago, many of them didn't as they wanted to see a more 'rounded' candidate."

DD has been looking at medical schools, and all of the ones we looked at only accept further maths with maths as a fourth A level.

Medical schools want chemistry and usually biology, plus another A level. They won't accept maths, further maths and chemistry for example as it doesn't show a rounded enough education. Some of the medical schools we looked at prefer the third A level to be an arts or humanities subject for the rounded education element.

The Further Maths Support Programme say: “If students have completed A level Mathematics in Year 12 some medical schools will not count this in their offer. They insist that all A levels in the 3 subjects making up their offer are sat at the end of Year 13. Students completing A level Mathematics at the end of Year 12 would be made an offer based on their grade in Further Mathematics (taken at the end of Year 13), and two other subjects. Schools and colleges that arrange their Mathematics and Further Mathematics programme in this way should consider contacting medical admissions tutors at the universities to which their students have applied to explain the situation.”

furthermaths.org.uk/medicine

When I did it (admittedly 20 years ago) it was moduler and for Maths you had to do Pure 1, 2, and 3 (which got progressively harder) Mechanics 1, Stats 1 and then Mechanics 2 or Stats 2.

Further Maths then added Pure 4-6 whichever and Mechanics 3 and Stats 3 (plus both 2).

So yes it was harder

You are aware of the usual caveats around FM and medicine?

Yes aware. And thanks for repl(ies).
The 6th form is trying to insist that the medschools won't accept FM, but I've got 4 emails back so far (plus some verbal communication) that strongly say otherwise! Plus a reply from Birmingham I can't make sense of, but it could be they don't accept FM.

I hear a lot from other parents annoyed this 6th form doesn't support their child as desired. Seems like DD & me will get some extended practice digging our heels in.

From our experience they do accept further maths, but only as a fourth A level as they count maths and FM as one subject.

Actually, if I may continue to impose on the kindness of others, does anyone think they can interpret what below means? DD's application would be based on bio+chem+FMaths taken at end of yr13. Would this medical school reject her application therefore? I think they're saying they won't consider FM as an A-level by itself, FM can only contribute to an application when it's taken as As and with regular maths A-level.

===========
"If an applicant is studying a single Mathematics A Level and you wish this subject to be included in an offer requirement you must follow a curriculum that involves the study of three modules in Year 13. Each of these modules must contribute to the final A Level Mathematics result and must be studied and examined for the first time in this year. The following applies to students who also study Further Mathematics:

o We will consider a module combination that leads to an A Level in Mathematics and an AS Level in Further Mathematics after two years of study (Years 12 and 13).
o Three modules must be studied in Year 13. The module results may contribute to either the Mathematics A Level or the Further Mathematics AS Level.
o The Mathematics component of an offer will be based on achieving A/A* in A Level Mathematics and A in AS Level Further Mathematics."

It means, lljkk that the uni hasn’t updated its advice to take into account that maths is now linear, not modular, and they can no longer share modules

I'd guess that FM gets more into the 'useful' statistics than maths depending on options taken. I'm way out of date but we did 4 lots of pure plus one each of stats and mechanics.

Started looking into medical papers with DH and found that A-Level just started mentioning the stats that are used in real world medicine papers - we worked together to learn it which was hard!

Didn't do FM and suspect Pure Maths would have been my nemesis although more mechs would have been fun and more stats painful but useful in later life!

I wondered about the module advice, too!!

Acquaintance who works in admissions pointed out a risk no one else has mentioned: raised risk that the MedSchool can balls up own admissions screening process. Meaning they might see FM on the application & toss it without looking at anything else and realising it shouldn't be screened out. Without taking the time to realise that FM wasn't combined with math+An-other subject in yr13. When they process a few thousands applications, errors like that happen.

Basically they were saying that the student had to sit 3 modules in Y13 that had to contribute towards the offer in some way. This wouldn’t apply anymore, your DD would get a clear maths result in Y12 and a separate further maths one in Y13 whereas before the maths result wouldn’t be cashed in until Y13 and the modules arranged between maths and FM to maximise results.

Seeing FM on the application shouldn’t be an issue as she’s doing four and offers are made on 3? They would surely only toss the FM ones with 3 subjects only.

I think you run the slight risk that the universities you know that accept FM may not be the right ones for her. They may do PBL, or use BMAT to assess when her strength is UKCAT. Is a compromise of 3 x AL plus FM to AS?

Wants to do a physics degree and even Oxford don't require further maths A level. I guess there's a reason she's been dissuaded and assume it's a big step up.

Seriously screwed up advice. The maths content of first year physics at universities covered FM in the first term. If a student can't cope with FM they probably shouldn't be doing a physics degree.

Oxford may not list it as a requirement (not all schools offer it) but not having FM would make the admissions process and the first year more challenging. Of course Oxford physics do take a handful of students with FM or equivalent - IB maths doesn't cover all FM topics in the same depth, for example - but not taking FM if this is an option would be strange for a student aiming for physics at top universities.

It means, lljkk that the uni hasn’t updated its advice to take into account that maths is now linear, not modular, and they can no longer share modules.

We are still in the 2018/2019 admissions cycle, for which students are sitting the old maths A levels.

The advice will be updated over the summer for applications for 2019/2020, i.e. for students taking linear exams in 2019.

(Well, I can't guarantee that this specific advice will be updated - but certainly the course guides I have seen for 2019/2020 applications reflect the new linear structure.)

Oxford may not list it as a requirement (not all schools offer it)

I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion from here. You don't need a PhD in semiotics to read between the lines enough to understand it to mean "if you can do FM, for God's sake do so. If you can't, even though you wanted to, because it's not offered, then we'll accept you, but it's going to be hard work. If you didn't because you were offered it but don't fancy it much, tough."

They're basically saying "if you have a good reason you didn't do FM, then we'll let you in, but it's going to be tough." I suspect that at interview, you would be asked why you didn't do FM, and you need a reason which is force majure.

You don't need a PhD in semiotics to read between the lines enough to understand it to mean "if you can do FM, for God's sake do so. If you can't, even though you wanted to, because it's not offered, then we'll accept you, but it's going to be hard work. If you didn't because you were offered it but don't fancy it much, tough."

The last sentence is not correct.

A number of students make mistakes in choosing their options at 16. Somebody who says that they anticipated studying chemistry at university, didn't take FM, decided they liked physics more, couldn't take FM in year 13 under the new linear structure, wouldn't be rejected if they were a strong candidate.

And students from less advantaged backgrounds are much more likely to make mistakes in choosing options. It would be ridiculous to hold this against them.

But such a candidate without FM would be well advised to study FM topics in their own time - using available online resources - to catch up, do better in PAT and interview. Oxford rely on PAT to select for interview and PAT has mathematical content.

And students from less advantaged backgrounds are much more likely to make mistakes in choosing options. It would be ridiculous to hold this against them.

Our experience is that pursuing this policy results in a disproportionate number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds failing the first year or, even worse, barely progressing and then failing the second year. We put in place a lot of support for dealing with arrivals with non-ideal A Levels, but found that disadvantaged students just didn't have the mental bandwidth to access that support effectively while also dealing with all the other issues of starting university. Worse, as the course was using the skills from those A Levels from the off, those students were on the back foot and struggling more widely: they were having to learn those skills ab initio via the support routes, while other students had them already.

I know it's different for Oxford, but if my own child wanted to change direction and do a course their A Levels didn't fit them for, I would try to steer them to a foundation year. At most universities progression from foundation to first year is a progression decision rather than an admission decision (ie, unless you fail, you get a place) and it provides an opportunity to get up to speed without the impending hammer of end of first year exams.

Further Maths is now a really popular and important A level for anyone wanting to study a STEM degree. The Further Maths Support Programme can give lots of help and advice about this; there’s a lot of information about FM on the FMSP website. Some really useful pages are Information for parents, Support for studying FM furthermaths.org.uk/study_fm and the university pages that give information about current university offers furthermaths.org.uk/universities

I think what is being got at is that if OP's daughter did further maths, she would sit the basic maths in year 12 and FM in year 13. But because some universities don't count further maths on its own, and also only take into account subjects sat in year 13, they would in effect view it as her only having two a-levels counting towards the offer. Which is bloody stupid if that is what they are doing.

As far as how hard FM is, I think that's difficult to say. I did it in the modular system and maths and FM had an extra 50% time allocated, so you basically had 75% of the time for each as you did for other subjects. It does build on a lot of what goes before, so in some ways it wasn't as difficult conceptually. And those who chose FM were all getting good As in basic maths, and didn't need as much time for things to sink in.

It does help a fair amount for some degrees. But in my experience, those who hadn't done FM (usually because it wasn't offered at school), had caught up by the end of 2nd year. Conversely, some people who had done FM tended to coast a bit, particularly in 1st year where a lot of the FM topics were being repeated. It then came as a bit of a shock when new maths was introduced and they had to pay attention.

But because some universities don't count further maths on its own, and also only take into account subjects sat in year 13, they would in effect view it as her only having two a-levels counting towards the offer. Which is bloody stupid if that is what they are doing.

They aren't, for a general "they". It's possible that a tiny number of medical schools might do this.

It was more than a tiny number of medical schools Keneft. We looked at loads online and visited 5. They all wanted 2 science subjects, and counted maths and FM as one subject. So chemistry, maths and FM wouldn't qualify as 3 subjects for medicine.

But the OP isn’t offering maths and further maths, but just further maths, chemistry and biology.

They all wanted 2 science subjects, and counted maths and FM as one subject. So chemistry, maths and FM wouldn't qualify as 3 subjects for medicine.

But for the OP to have a problem, they would both need to have that rule and insist that all A Levels be presented in one sitting and insist that the A Levels that are presented in the final sitting be the ones that form the final offer.

Historically, under the modularised A Level many schools did C1-4+2 options in Year 12 and then Further Maths in Year 13, and got kids into medical schools. I personally think that's a bad idea for all sorts of other reasons, but it was a very popular route. I struggle to believe that those schools cut all their pupils off from medical school.

What the medical schools don't want is Maths, Further Maths and Chemistry as an admission package. I can see their point. They also want to see you doing three A Levels in a session, to show you can handle the work load. I can also see their point. I don't see that's inconsistent with accepting a student who already has Maths, and then takes Further Maths, Chemistry and Biology in Year 13. That sequence matches both of the requirements. I would ask them explicitly, in terms, if they would reject such a student, rather than infer it from two rules whose interaction is probably not thought through terribly carefully.