i am a Troublesome Wife...

[NickOfTime]

so apparently i've upset the entire chain of command by sticking up for families of pre-school children in our community, who have been told that they must pay the nursery education grant portion of their pre-school bill up front each month, which will then be refunded (well, claimed for anyway) at the end of each term.

i appear to be the only person who thinks this is unacceptable in any form, and clearly against dfes guidance, which states that under NO circumstances should parents be required to do this.

having raised it to the aff and through the chain of command, i have been told it won't change and the unit will do as it likes.

apparently they have told the families that anyone suffering financial hardship can go to ssafa, or get an interest free loan through the pay office. because, clearly families with young children are going to be queueing up to explain they are skint and can't afford the nursery fees, right?

however, i then made a tactical error and approached the education officer at my place of work, which resulted in a bit of a ding dong . i put my hands up and explained to my manager that i shouldn't have discussed it with him at work, but he came in and it developed naturally. anyway, the guy left saying he would have a look at it, hadn't realised some of the facts (like dfes said it wasn't to happen) etc etc.

i left it then, because i trusted he would look into it.

so then yesterday i got an almighty shooing at work. my boss had an official complaint about my behaviour from the SO1. (fair enough - had already said it wasn't an appropriate setting - took it on the chin, apologised again, etc) my boss wants me to go and speak to the SO1, but i know i'm going to lose it and be really exceptionally rude about the intelligence of a young man that apparently can't tell the difference between a wife and a representative of a financial organisation, which will somehwat divert attention from the real issue - that of families being forced to gork out hundreds of dollars in additional nursery payments, leaving themselves short (at christmas - no way will the refund be even processed by easter if i know the military... and boy, do i.)

so having used the appropriate channels, i get the finger. using an inapprpriate channel, i get told that if i express my opinion again, there will be an official complaint to regional manager and i'll pretty much get sacked.

i can live with that tbh.

but i'm pretty certain that had i discussed this with the guy outside of my work, he'd have done the same thing - run off squealing to the SO1 and demanded that my husband be told to get me in line.

ffs.

i'm livid - who will help these families? why on earth should they be forced to pay out a government grant in advance and claim the money back months later, in direct contravention of govt guidance?

my boss is okay btw - she did say she wasn't going to stop me having opinions, but that i shouldn't be expressing them at work (yep, not daft, realised that, but my absolute frustration boiled over, which is why i went to her and fessed up)

and if i continue to beat this blardy dead horse, it now looks like sour grapes because i got told off like a four year old. aaaargh.

anyway, just wanted to rant.

Okay - this sounds really dodgy to me.
First of all - which force is it and do you work for them and in what capacity?

Are you talking about working nursery grant or preschool vouchers?

If it's preschool, then surely the allocation is deducted from your bill, then you pay. So whatever you entitled to (15hrs a week), then you pay more if the sessions cost more than the voucher amounts.

Could you get CEAS to help you out?

the early years education grant - the free 12.5/ 15 hours (whatever it is) that every child is entitled to per week from the term after their third birthday... up until the summer everyone was getting their free entitlement - since then the parents are being billed for the entire amount (including the free education their children are entitled to) and then have to claim it back retrospectively at the end of every term.

army.

i don't work for them (which is the other reason i am royally miffed - if the chap i argued with had complained to my boss himself in his capacity as a customer, fair enough - had already accepted i was in the wrong for questioning army policy in my work environment - but whinge to the army and get your boss to complain for you because a wife was mean?! pah. grow a pair.) i work for a local company that has a 95% army customer base. we have an outlet on camp, although are nothing to do with the military save that they are our customers.

i don't even have children at the blardy nursery. just aghast on behalf of the 25 or so families that do, and not content for them to be told to suck it up.

i don't think ceas will be of help tbh, but might give my ol' pal jeremy a bell...

thanks for listening - have calmed down a bit, but am not letting it go.

Hi Nickoftime - still don't quite understand.
Is the preschool actually ran by the army? If not, what are they on about???

I don't think you're in the wrong at all and I would be extremely peeed off if I, as a wife, was 'told off' through my DH.

You are right, so right, this is disgusting!

Have you tried the HIVE, NPFS (is Naval but there must be an equivalent). Your nursery management.....ummmm MP or Childrens Services local rep.

I feel incensed on your behalf, this is appalling.

I will go away and have a think.

Threaten to counter complain to the dfes about it, and that his name will be mentioned for contravening government policy?

Also point out to him that you do not work for the Army, are not part of the structure and that you are not bound by his rules or his opinions and if he can't tell the difference between a civilian and someone in the Army he needs his eyes testing.

Also, call him by his first name, and do not call him Sir as he is not your superior in any way shape or form. That'll really piss him off.

Oh, and don't worry about being troublesome - I have been for years and I don't let it worry me at all; it doesn't bother dh either.

i'm far too angry to be worried about being troublesome

to clarify though, the chap (5 minute captain) complained to his boss (herr colonel) who called my (civilian) employer to complain about me. (again, no issues about the complaint as such, except it came from his boss ffs, not himself as a customer who felt he had been treated badly. it's like the station commander ringing bleeding tescos because a checkout girl was rude to one of his airmen. sheesh.)

anyway, had been toying with making an official complaint through dfes in any case - the local aff are lovely but too nice and have rolled over, so i might speak to nikki thingy the aff education rep.

and i still have the service complaints commissioner to fall back on if all else fails.

it is a sort-of service nursery. it's not sce provided, but they have access to an sce liaison teacher through school. they are now ofsted inspected and the children are entitled to their nursery education grant. this is why the army think it's ok for parents for fork out for a government grant - it actually only exists because of the unit, and although a handful of local children go it's very few. the vast majority of parents are military.

oh, and to make matters slightly more interesting, the colonel who made the complaint against me is dh's boss. he's a lovely bloke, but clearly doesn't like his decisions being questioned. at least in public. i actually know him quite well, and am faintly surprised by the whole affair - but presumably he thinks i have behaved unprofessionally in my pissant pocket money job and need reminding of my status.

actually that might be unfair - he might genuinely have just taken exception to my attitude, which is fair enough, but get the poor bullied captain to make his own complaint ffs.

like you said, scary, you'd think a fine upstanding young officer of her majesty's forces would recognise the difference between an official representative of either the british army or my employer, and a pissed-off wifelet.

the nursery manager has received a number of complaints from parents, but they were all told 'no, this is the way it is' and have paid up. after i raised the point initially, she was asked whether the new system was working and if people were ok with it, and she said it was all fine and no problems. people had turned up to her office with print-outs from the dfes website saying the nursery weren't allowed to charge them for it. right. the entire hierarchy seem to think that because everyone has paid their bill (they had no option) that it's all fine and no-one has a problem.

For what it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing.

Surely though - the mananger/committee of the preschool fill out the grant forms at the starts of every term (to say numbers of 3+) and then the LEA send their cheque? That is how it's done (I was a preschool Chairperson) and surely the handful of non-mil families will be a bit if the rules differ for them?

Don't see how, due to council handing out grant cheque, the army can be arsey about it or ask for it another way. I reckon you should all boycott the nursery and all of them say they're not paying the fees until it's sorted.

I would be reminding the very junior captain that you are a civilian and that if he wants to complain about you, he has to do it as under the Data Protection Act this cannot be discussed with his Colonel. Furthermore, you will complain higher than the Colonel if he stuffs up your job, and the Army chain of command is an inappropriate mechanism for complaining about someone in civvy street.

The last time someone complained to my husband about me they got told where to stick it and to man up and pay the Local Authority bill they were trying to avoid. He was also told he was on a sticky wicket trying to get dh to influence my job and my decisions and circumvent Govt legislation. He paid, but did not look big.

If you know the Colonel can you ask him informally why he felt it necessary to complain to you employer rather than tell the Capt to man up.

Would ofsted have any advice do you think?

I still don't understand why they're allowed to ask you to pay then claim back. It must be the LEA paying the grant for vouchers yes?

scaryteacher Wed 06-Oct-10 09:33:28
The last time someone complained to my husband about me they got told where to stick it

Someone has complained about me to DH, he was told where to stick it (by DH). The same man (a ssgt in army MPGS) also told the DH's of the 2 women who are friends with me that their wives were trouble.

ah, small unintentional drip feed as i realise i haven't made it absolutely clear - we aren't in the uk, so although the mil families are entitled to the same grants, the army believe (in my opinion, entirely against dfes policy and morally and ethically wrongly) that they can administer the grant however they want - and because the army do not want the burden of running at a deficit until the cash from the uk clears (as per every uk nursery) they have passed this deficit on to the parents - so the parents have to pay the costs of the free education they are entitled to up front, until the army/ nursery get the money back from the govt - at which point the parents will be reimbursed.

i am frankly appalled that they are using the nursery parents to bail them out of their responsibilities. (the local parents are not affected, as they are not entitled to the 'free' hours in any case - so there has been no change to how their bills are administered)

i will have a chat with the colonel at some point tbh - i've just been so mad about it over the last two days that i haven't been able to trust myself not to lose it

my imaginary conversations have been running somewhere along the lines of standards of junior officers and their lack of intelligence/ bollocks, which isn't really the point...

scary 'the army chain of command is an inappropriate mechanism for complaining about someone in civvy street'. quite. which is why i need to calm down before i speak to either of them

twas ever thus - living in a goldfish bowl.

i did say this in mitigation to my boss - no-one in the community has any problem with stopping my colleagues or i in the street or about our daily business and asking us to do something for them at work - but that's ok, because it puts our employer in a good light. heaven forbid i ask someone do do something when they are out of their (army) workplace though.

I'd be collecting a bunch of toys (possibly old ones the nursery doesn't need any longer) and giving them to the junior officer with the statement, 'I think you threw these out of your pram, and assume you would like to have them back.'

I quite understand that this might be a bit too cheeky - but you could keep the image in your head to give you an occasional smile about it.

The Army administers where we are in Brussels for xy heat and light and have no idea what they are doing; or feel they can break the rules with impunity and only back down when you call them on it.

aha - you missed that vital bit of being overseas nickoftime . I see now how it's tricky.

Just remember, they all sit on the bog with their trousers and pants round their ankles every so often. Nurse that mental image and then grin openly every time you see junior (and the Col as well). It drives them mad.

sorry lucie i got a bit carried away and forgot i haven't been on the forces board for a while - everywhere else on mn where i pop up everyone knows where i live! (and are probably really really bored of me mentioning it... i used to be madwomanintheattic - it took me 9 mos to get army authority for our posting here to proceed because dd2 has sn - might ring a few bells...)

am loving the toys idea - as a mental image it will suit very well - and i might suggest it for his mug out, shame i won't be here at that point... but i fear it might affect my high horse moral high ground if i actually enact the idea myself...

ugh to toilet imagery. i think i'll stick with smirking at his lack of a - intelligence, and b - balls.

i'm just disappointed in the col really tbh. i thought he was better than this.

my colleague has been reprimanded today as he complained about her as well (she had the temerity to agree with me at one point during the discussion)

ho hum.

will leave it another day to gather up to date info as to current state of play at the nursery, and let the local aff girls know i'm still questioning it, and then i'll pop and see him, with a written letter letter stating my disappointment that the army chain of command has been utilised to make a complaint against a civilian in a civilian organisation, and also to state my concerns with regard to service personnel being disadvantaged financially due to their posting, against dfes policy and guidance, and asking that the situation is reviewed before i take it up with the service complaints commissioner on behalf of the families.

i think that'll be professional enough for him.

any bets on how long it'll take him to get hold of dh?

[shocked] I can not see how they can make you pay for something you would recieve for free in the uk, (even if you can claim it back later) Also this is not in line with what happens in other overseas postings. BFG, or at least where we are has FS1 (the 15 hours a week entitlement) in a nursery class in the SCE primary schools, not in the AWS daycare setting but everyone is able to access it and you are not expected to pay in advance!!!
Phone AFF education specialist Pronto! I agree with you that this is not acceptable.
Keep us posted.
(I would apologise to the captain for ambushing him when he didn't expect it but I wouldn't be apologising to his SO1 because it wasn't him you got cross with. That should be more than sufficient in terms of grovelling and if it's not tough.)

And sometimes you need to be a bit troublesome in order that your point of view is listened to. x

For what it's worth, I'm proud of you! Too often wives just roll over and agree with everything because their husbands are in the Forces.

Wish I had your husband though. Whenever I don't agree with Army view, mine would not back me up and give me a lot of spiel about where the money comes from, career progression etc until my eyes just roll up in boredom.

As I said, good on you and thanks for fighting this, especially since your own kids don't use the setting.

I already apologised to him at the end of the discussion loubie - i even said it wasn't his fault and he had probably been left a bum deal by his predecessor, i did explain i was just enormously frustrated by having the official channels effectively closed with no real discussion, just a reiteration of the policy. (i did go off on one though, when he said 'i'll have a look at it, but i'm quite busy, i might not get the chance until the middle of november'. november ffs. they'll all have paid 3 months worth of 'free' 15 hours a week charges by then.)

i discussed with a couple of people whether i should take him a bottle of wine and an apology on the day of the incident (i'm not daft - it wasn't his fault and i can be a belligerent old harridan - all 5' 2" of me) but the three people i asked (two of them witnessed the incident) said no, they thought my points were fair and he'd agreed they needed looking into, and was bright enough to realise that i was just frustrated with the situation. obviously not.

scary - dh thinks the education capt reacted the way he did because he's a teacher - a parent was mean, so he went to headmaster to get him to deal with it

well, i'll let you all know what develops.

Huh, I dealt with parents myself, being a professional! We don't have an awful high opinion of schoolies in the RN either.

Don't apologise, write that letter and see what happens. There is no way that they should be involving your dh in what is effectively a misapplication of the rules that you have pointed out to them. Had you not pointed this out and it was picked up, and they got bollocked, would they have blamed you for that? You have flagged up a mistake and they should be grateful for your input.

I disagree with Loubie - if the weed is an Army officer he should be trained to deal with 'being ambushed when he wasn't expecting it'. If he can't, what is he doing wearing the uniform, schoolie or not? He evidently couldn't cope with teaching - we are always on the look out for lovely teenagers preparing to ambush us!

I wouldn't send the letter about the chain of command. Just apologise again and then let that matter drop I think. (we are after all dependents of our husbands when we live overseas and therefore subject to a little more scrutiny than when we're at home, they might just get arsey and pull out the rules book)

Do not let the wussy captain complaint thing detract form the fact that I'm sure they shouldn't be charging for something you would get at home for free. Definitely gather as much evidence as you can and raise this matter again. AFF HQ do have quite a lot of influence with the chain of command I really think they would be good people to speak to.