The Great Milk Debate.......in our house anyway!

[batey]

Right then, I'd be interested in your views on this. Dh and I have been squabbling over this one for a while and need to get it sorted. Basically he thinks the dds/grown ups don't need cows milk. I think/thought they do because of the need for calcium to build healthy bones to protect against osteoporosis in later life. Especially in girls under 15,also in the light of the fact my Mum has significantly shrunk in recent years (about 4cms!).

Currently my dds have milk on their cereal every other day, a yoghurt maybe every other day,chees now and again, and a small amount of warm milk before bed.They're 3 and 5 1/2.

His argument is that calcium can be got from other sources. And that milk CAUSES bones to deteriorate. As well as being problematic in other ways, excema,sinus problems etc. Well he's now produced stuff from the internet to back this. And it's quite scarry reading

Trouble is, the other calcium sources aren't as yet that appealing to the dds. And should I just change to soya or non dairy milk/yogurts? Am confused,but it does appear that he has a point. What do you think? Any nutitionists out there?

Doesn't soya milk have more sugar in it which is bad for your teeth? There's also the hormone problem with it (is it oestrogen? I can't remember).

I would say that you can't win - every alternative will be bad for you in some way. Is it better for your DDs to eat cows milk based products for their calcium intake or to miss out on calcium because they won't eat the alternatives?

not a nutritionist but a paediatrician told me that soya milk was basically sugar water - very bad for teeth etc and insufficient other good stuff in it. As Soupy says there are also issues about soya generally.
I think children really need milk to grow strong and well and if you do have osteoporosis in the family (through your mother) you'd have to have a very good other reason (like allergy) to phase it out. IMO your children may not be getting enough anyway from your description of their diet.
Do they have any ezcema, sinus problems or anything? If not, is he not just imagining problems where none arise?

Dd1 has had excema since she was 3, getting better now though. Dd2 has glue ear and general drippy nose. And I have had persistent sinus problems since having kids.Thay do eat alot of seaweed/buckwheat(dh is Japanese)/fruit and veg, all of which have calcium.But not sure if this would be enough without their dairy things too?

John Briffa (sp? the nutritionist bloke) in the Guardian said milk causes osteoporosis. I then heard a radio 4 interview with a consultant expert type who said he was talking complete cobblers and that milk's good stuff and we should all be drinking loads of it.

BTW does anyone else drink cold milk with a dash of tabasco?

I think its only the soya formula not the actual milk that contains lots of added sugar. I've been vegan for ten years (minority view I know, but I'm not a weirdo, honest!) so this meands that DS (20mo) also eats lots of non-dairy food. (He had cow and gate formula, tho, and is allowed cheese and chocolate occasionally) There is LOADS of yummy stuff to choose from now, available at your local tescos and everything!:

Provomel soya milks are calcium enriched
Swedish Soft cheese (a bit like philadelphia)
Provomel soya desert (in chocolate or vanilla-yum! AND calcium enriched)
Cheezley "cheddar style" thingy
Tesco soya milk sweetened with apple juice
Yofu "junior" yougurt. It has no bits in, and is calcium enriched
Granose egg-free mayonaise
Provomel chocolate milk shake (calcium enriched)
Swedish Glace ice cream
and all this is before you even get to those yummy green and yellow veggies or nuts and legumes!
So yes, it is definately possible to have a good calcium intake without dairy products. I'm told that the provomel products are as nice as "the real thing"!
PS I kept a food diary for the dietician when i was pg, and she said my diet was completely fine, and met all my calcium needs for pregnancy and bfing.

Right ... I went to a seminar only last night that touched upon this this very subject. Apparently the heating process that milk goes through in pasteurisation causes enzymes to build up (or break down ... can't remember exactly!!) that cancel out the calcium in the milk. Osteoporosis, in recent years, has become a paediatric disease.
Apparently if you want calcium from cows milk you should drink it straight from the cow.
I have not eaten dairy products for 6 years now ... not because of the above reasons, but because I suffer from catarrh problems and sinus problems and dairy products most definitely make it worse.
I am pregnant at the moment so I am eating cheese and yoghurt as a booster but I am very sinussy in the mornings ... sneeze for England from waking until about 10am ... when I don't have any dairy I don't have that problem.
I have all my calcium from vegetables and fish and I take nutritional supplements as well.
I believe that nutritional supplements are vital to our health.
My DS does drink milk ( half a cup at bedtime) and likes cheese and yoghurt ... but I supplement his diet too and he eats vegetables so I am not worried if he goes for a while without dairy.

Batey I'm with your Dh, Sosijsmum and Ghosty. I'm not a vegan, although I used to be. All the symptoms you mention could be due to consumption of dairy produce (allergy?). Milk - despite all the hype - is just not really very good for you. Humans were designed to drink humans milk, cows milk was designed for calves.

Dh often makes the point that why is it in Japan/asian diets there is very little osteoporosis/hip problems etc where they eat virtually no dairy,and in western countries it's on the increase and affecting younger and younger people?

As is obesity - also linked to dairy produce...

Batey - they eat a lot of soya, which can have a protective effect against a variety of complaints from menopausal symptoms (linking to what Soupdragon said about the oestrogen-like chemicals) to female cancers.

Also, isn't weight bearing exercise at least as important as calcium intake to building bone density?

Have a look at this for more info on what provamel have to say. (Hope that's not advertising, I'm not on commission, but i am a big fan!)

My understanding is that cow's milk has too much protein in it. Tends to tip the body into being a bit acidic, and the body may respond by leaching calcium from the bones to compensate and get the human body back to its preferred pH. You won't get the imbalance if you eat a lot of 'alkaline' foods like fruit & veg, but most westerners actually eat mostly high acid foods (grains and meat being big culprits) at the expense of fruit & veg. So cow's milk on top of lots of rice, pasta, corn flakes & beef is not good for the bone storage situtation.

Human milk doesn't have this problem because human milk is much lower in protein.

All high protein foods tend to be "acid-promoting". Cheeses can be worst of all, due to high phosphorous levels.(?)

I don't know if I remember all that right... but fundamentally, I know it's true that rates of osteoporosis are MUCH lower in countries where most everybody out of childhood is intolerant of cow's milk and doesn't drink it. That's pretty strong evidence that cow's milk isn't a preventative.

Load bearing activities lots of walking or running and carrying heavy things about, like one's children are supposed to be very good for increasing calcium density in bones. Breastfeeding with small breaks inbetween each child also 'programs' the body to accumulate extra calcium in bones.

Found this while searching yesterday,this is my first link,so bear with me,look at this

Wow,it worked!!

Amazing how these topics come up! We are also having the Great Milk debate as DS (21months) was having sinus prblems with a persistent cough at night. After some antihistamine and approximately 5 months of diary free diet this has cleared up completely. But DH is on the warpath about calcium intake. The Dr said some calcium enriched soya is OK but plenty of veg expecially broccoli and oily fish...fortunately at the moment DS thinks these are still OK as long as the broccoli is "disguised"!!!!! Anyone got any other recommendations for calcium rich foods?

Here are some from what dh has found-beans(any kind),fortified orange juice,corn tortillas,seaweed,kale,bok choy,okra,dried figs,tofu.

It also says caffeine and alcohol inhibit calcium absorption.HTH

Does goats milk count?

Not sure, but I'd imagine so. I'll try to find out...

Sofiaames are you around? I would love to hear what your father has to say about the anti dairy stance which seems more common in the USA but is catching on a bit here too.
Our kid love milk and drink loads.
I don't dislike it but wouldn't drink it in preferance to water, EXCEPT when I was pregnant - I craved cold milk with all 3 pregnancies and had to limit my intake to 2 or sometimes 3 pints a day! I just couldn't get enough of the white stuff.

My father begs me on a daily basis to eat/drink more dairy products. I am mildly lactose intolerant so I can't down a glass of milk without getting a tummy ache. My father is desperately worried that I am not getting enough calcium in my diet. I won't take calcium pills as they constipate you and my haemmoroids are bad enough from pregnancy/childbirth. He has also expressed concern about eating large amounts of soya because of the hormone (estrogen) problem.
Anyway, I guess that all adds up to the answer being that you absolutely should make sure you (females) and your kids get enough milk/dairy.

SofiaAmes, is your Dad in the medical profession?

batey, I'll answer for sofia while she's not here (hope you don't mind sofia) - he's a well known scientist, there was a thread on it somewhere. Search under Bruce Ames in text of conversation.

SnoobyKat:
I believe the research will eventually prove that our idea of "how much" Calcium a person needs is over-biased by the western diet with too much grains and animal protein. So what we think the Calcium RDA should be is exagerated because it's only recently we realised how detrimental some of our staple foods (including cheese and milk themselves) are to the Calcium stores in the body.

In other words, it's highly probable that a seemingly "low" Calcium diet which has the right balance in other respects, gives plenty of Calcium. There is ample evidence of this looking at bone density levels (usually equivalent to or better than westerners) in non-milk drinking populations. So if your child has a half-balanced diet, including some high-Ca content veg and a little fish, that is very probably good enough.

I "let" my kids drink a lot of milk... but for the high fat and other healthy content rather than the Calcium.

Maybe we're O.K. after all! And dh and I should stop squabbling about this one. My dds don't get too much dairy, but have other calcium rich foods, especially from his diet/culture. I'll have to show him this.

I was just wondering would some one be able to tell me a website where Nannys goats milk formula can be bought please