The Great Milk Debate.......in our house anyway!

[batey]

Right then, I'd be interested in your views on this. Dh and I have been squabbling over this one for a while and need to get it sorted. Basically he thinks the dds/grown ups don't need cows milk. I think/thought they do because of the need for calcium to build healthy bones to protect against osteoporosis in later life. Especially in girls under 15,also in the light of the fact my Mum has significantly shrunk in recent years (about 4cms!).

Currently my dds have milk on their cereal every other day, a yoghurt maybe every other day,chees now and again, and a small amount of warm milk before bed.They're 3 and 5 1/2.

His argument is that calcium can be got from other sources. And that milk CAUSES bones to deteriorate. As well as being problematic in other ways, excema,sinus problems etc. Well he's now produced stuff from the internet to back this. And it's quite scarry reading

Trouble is, the other calcium sources aren't as yet that appealing to the dds. And should I just change to soya or non dairy milk/yogurts? Am confused,but it does appear that he has a point. What do you think? Any nutitionists out there?

Not about Calcium in general but I stopped drinking milk years ago when I was all anorexic - doctor told me it was one of the most important things as human beings we can drink because it helps us digest certain vitamins.

Not sure how true this is and only drink it very occassionally now but do worry about osteoperosis.

Batey, actually old people in Eastern countries DON'T have increased bone density. What they do have is stronger muscles usually from walking and most importantly, squatting, which stops them falling over, which is what causes fragile bones to break. Osteoporosis is usually only diagnosed after a fall and a break, so the evidence is that they do have reduced bone density, but fewer breaks for other reasons.

Maybe you could also show him this?

University of Otago researchers carry out world-first bone density study

Children who avoid drinking cows' milk are twice as likely to fracture bones than their milk-drinking counterparts, say researchers at the University of Otago in New Zealand.
In a world-first bone density study, a group of children between the ages of three and 10 years, who had avoided cows' milk for a period of four months or more, were examined. The research found that almost 50 per cent of the group had already suffered one or more fractures.
Postgraduate human nutrition student Ruth Black, under the direction of Professorial Research Fellow Ailsa Goulding, carried out the study which was funded by the Health Research Council and New Zealand Milk.
"We were surprised by the severity of the low density in the children we studied, by the high number of young children we saw who had already broken bones ? and by the fact that many were short and overweight, says Professor Goulding."
The short stature of the group was an unexpected finding. Several earlier studies have noted that milk supplementation is associated with height gain, while calcium deprivation may retard growth, says Professor Goulding. "Milk does contain active peptides which favour bone gain, so it may be a property of milk-avoidance, not just calcium deprivation, which contributes to the shorter stature and small bones of children who avoid milk."
The study is the first to measure bone density throughout the skeleton of a group of young children who have avoided cows' milk. Low density was found throughout the skeleton (forearm, hip, spine and total body) and many of the children had already broken bones after trivial falls, though the average age of the group was only six years.
Only eight per cent of the group met the daily guidelines for recommended calcium intake.
The study was unique in that any child who avoided milk was accepted, regardless of the reasons why. Half of the children studied reported suffering from allergy-like symptoms after ingesting milk while the other half abstained from drinking milk because they disliked the taste or their families did not provide milk at home.
Although 97 per cent of the parents of the children recognised that cows' milk was an important nutritional food for growing children, few sought advice on possible supplements from health professionals.
"It is essential that the diet should supply sufficient calcium for the needs of the growing skeleton", says Professor Goulding. "If children don't drink milk, they do need to step-up their calcium intakes from other sources. Children also need Vitamin D to efficiently absorb the calcium they consume."
Contact: Serena Gill

Batey, actually old people in Eastern countries DON'T have increased bone density. What they do have is stronger muscles usually from walking and most importantly, squatting, which stops them falling over, which is what causes fragile bones to break. Osteoporosis is usually only diagnosed after a fall and a break, so the evidence is that they do have reduced bone density, but fewer breaks for other reasons.

Or even this:
CHICAGO, October 1, 1999 - It may never be too late to reap the bone benefits of drinking milk, suggests a new study published in the Journal of The American Dietetic Association.

This multicenter, randomized, controlled trial found that by drinking three servings of fat free or lowfat milk each day, older adults could significantly improve their skeletal health. Additionally, this dietary change - which increased daily calcium intake by about 750 milligrams - helped improve the overall quality of their diets.

the consumption of three dairy servings helped favorably affect bone remodeling - or the continual process in which old bone is broken down (resorption) and replaced by fresh new bone (formation). If resorption exceeds formation, bone mass declines. A loss of bone mass can lead to osteoporosis, a painful bone-crippling disease that affects 28 million Americans.

The individuals who drank more milk experienced a significant decrease in bone resorption (13%), which is the first step in maintaining bone density, explained co-author Robert P. Heaney, MD, John A. Creighton University Professor at Creighton University in Omaha, one of the six coordinating medical centers.

"Not only did bone health improve by drinking three daily servings of fat free or lowfat milk, but these individuals also improved the nutrient-density of their diets without increasing the overall fat intake or blood cholesterol levels," Heaney said.

Batey, if there is osteoporosis in your family, it is a very inheritable disease (as you know) so I would keep up the milk. Choose low fat dairy as your children grow, but keep up the intake. Much of the anti-milk stuff comes from vegetarian or vegan pressure groups such as PETA, who disapprove of the dairy business full stop.

Aloha,
Thanks for those postings. As you may know from other threads, I am currently recovering from a broken leg due to a bizarre set of circumstances. Cos of previous surgery, my specialist is concerned about the bone regrowth, cos of disruption to the blood supply. to help things as much as i can, I have been drinking extra milk to help with bone reformation. My dh is indulging me, but sceptical that it makes much difference, but your posting seems to back me up.

Now, do you know of anything that helps re-establish blood vessels in trauma'd femurs ??

Ouch! Eat well, as a femur break increases your metabolism as your body gears up to rebuild the injury. Plenty of good protein (lean meat etc) may help - amino acids may give the regrowth of blood vessels a hand. Alcohol is rubbish for bones Don't go mad with vitamin C & E as both are antioxidants and wound healing (esp blood vessels) seems to require oxidants. Have you got a metal post inserted into your bone?

aloha - not sure how sound the University of Otago study is - because they admit that the children who did not drink milk did not have adequate calcium intake, and that many of their parents had made no effort to attempt to maintain an intake of calcium. It would be really interesting to see if the results would be the same if a milk drinking cohort were compared to a cohort who gained the same quantity of dietary calcium from non dairy sources. All they really seem to have proven is that milk is better than nothing....

Easy: when my sister broke her arm she was advised to take Vitamin D and folic acid supplements.

Bronnie: I used to buy Nanny formula from my local branch of Revital. I couldn't find it online but if you're in UK this might help.

Aloha,

Thanks for the interest. A bit gruesome, I have plates screwed int the bone from both sides, and wire wrapped round. They can't put in a post due to hip replacement further up, which was just about rehabbed when the femur broke.

Thanx for the advice, will try to follow the regime, but must have my glass of wine each night, not much else to look forward to right now.

Still 2 weeks to next xray, cross fingers I can start to weight bear after that (Wheelchair right now )

boyandgirl,

I'll try that too, although if I ask dh to get me some folic acid I think he might get the wrong end of the stick. (not that we could try now, horrid great brace thing on from waist to ankle)

Oakmaiden, I'm not paid by the Milk Marketing Board, honest! But it is very hard to get sufficient calcium from other sources. Calcium from milk is very bioavailable compared to say, green veg. There are very, very many studies that back this up. Honest. I have absolutely no axe to grind but in Western societies it is my belief that milk an the calcium from milk is altogether advantageous to health. I could post other studies if you like.

Easy, I'm so sorry. It must be shit, esp right now. Hope your X-rays are positive. It's a bad break.

thing is, as with all nutritional stuff, u dont know that u need it till u need it (deep isnt it lol?) its like: "youth is wasted on the young" which is exactly the same thing really - u only know u'r deficient when it shows - so while i believe in eating healthily, i dont think that supplements r necessarily a good thing - every1 i know who takes supps r always sick? any1 else found that?

Whatever your view on supplements, please take folic acid if it is at all possible if you may become pregnant. Ideally in a multivitamin. It protects against spina bifida, cleft palate and maybe even Down syndrome.

any1 still in here or am i the only 1?

this gives quite a lot of info about calcium

calcuim

I am in two minds about this. I feel milk can be a useful source of calcium but we don't need loads of it and a balanced diet is best.

I am a bit worried about my calcium intake after reading through some of the stuff about daily requirements. I've been breastfeeding continually for 4 years and my dd (nearly 16 months) won't take dairy and is still taking a lot of breastmilk.

I did wolf down a whole can of mackeral the other day...maybe my body is trying to tell me something....

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Am I correct in assuming that those of you who say milk-free are really meaning dairy-free. After reading this thread I have become a little worried about DS. He is 2.6 and will no longer drink milk. He does however have weetabix with semi-skimmed for breakfast everyday and a petits filous most days. He will also eat custard and cheese although I don't offer custard often he gets that at nursery 1-2 times a week. He will eat food in cheese sauce also but we would have this once a week max. Is this sufficient?

Bozza - if my daughter ever drinks milk she has whole milk - I was told that children needed the fat in their diet??

Bozza, milk is milk however you take it - as yoghurt, cheese or as a drink. I think it is worth making sure young children get plenty - maybe make milkshakes with bananas or give cheese sauces. There is evidence that a high intake in childhood protects against osteoporosis in old age.
The thing about the University of Ortego study is that it included children who did not drink milk for very many reasons - and all had low bone density. It really is quite hard to get enough calcium without milk or alternatively supplements with include, ideally zince and vitamin D along with calcium. It has been very widely studied and I think the evidence is overwhelming, personally.

Boe thats a whole other issue. I gave DS whole milk until he was two - I thought semi would be OK after that. He has always been above 75 on the wieght percentiles. He does have the petits filous that are full fat. I could give him more of those but my concern is that it might prove to be at the expense of fruit. I do give him chunks of cheddar for a snack. Suppose like Aloha suggests I should give more cheese sauce - macaroni cheese and cauliflower cheese back on the menu! I might try him with a banana milk shake and also think he might go for rice pudding.

Aloha,
Thanx yes it is pretty awful right now. Getting onto mumsnet keeps me sane (ish).

I think I'm going to suggest to my mum that she tries to drink more milk. 2 cups of coffee per day and the ocaisional bit of cheese doesn't seem enough now

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