Bread making from scratch - not instant method

[bacon]

Am I correct in thinking that shop bought flour isnt brilliant for taste? I am looking at getting flour direct from a mill, its not a bad price but if its got a deeper flavour then its worth it.

Also does/has anyone made bread with the sponge method? Very old fashioned way but once again improves flavour and texture.

Does using fresh yeast make a stronger flavour? I have noticed that the dry stuff doesnt give much richness.

I seem to have become a bit obsesive about bread making....strange but tasty!

I do sponge method. Waitrose own flour. Dry yeast. Happy with result. Haven't tried flour from mills. Might try it one day. If you try let us know the result!

I use Doves Farm flour which is a smaller producer than the large millers. I assume when you say 'direct from a mill' you mean a small local mill?

Ultimately what might affect flavour is the type of wheat they use in the mill rather than the type/size of mill. My Dad used to grow wheat in the UK and in general UK wheat has too little gluten in it to make really strong bread flour. The phrase 'strong flour' generally means a flour with a high gluten content that is typically made from imported Hard Red Canadian or American wheat. My Dad typically sold his wheat to make biscuits with as they need less gluten in them. UK wheat is sometimes blended in with US/Candaian wheat to make comemrcial flour. Wheat from other countries is used too.

Across Europe, bread was/is more often made from local wheats. As a result, the bread has a quite different consistency and form though than UK bread.

I would suggest you ask the miller what the precise mix and source of grain is that they use in their blend.

I use a bread maker so cannot help on sponge method or on yeast issues.

I use flour from Shipton Mill the malted grain stuff, the British white stuff, the spelt and the french bread flour usually. I think it gives a nice bread than the Asda stuff I used to use. I use the sachets of fast acting yeast, though, because I found that fresh yeast always left a yeasty taste which I don't like.

I use 3lbs flour, 2 sachets of yeast, 3tblspns flour, 4tblspns oil and roughly 2pints of water, but not all at once.

Mix it up, knead for ten minutes at least, rise for about 1 hour until doubled, knead again, divide into 2 loaves and shape, slash tops, rise another hour, until doubled. Then bake. It's a nice basic white bread that can be varied by using different flours, flavourings, potato flakes, oatmeal or whatever.

I would agree with MrsMagnolia that a long slow rise in the fridge overnight makes for a deeper flavour. I have done the sponge method on ocassion, for particular types of bread like pannetone and have always been happy with the results whatever flour I have used.

I made a nice loaf yesterday with Doves (Waitrose) I have to say it rose beautifully but I really want to improve the taste and texture. I like the points you have raised MrsMagnolia - letting it rest sounds perfect.

Yes, I am looking at a mill in Tetbury that produces all sorts of quality wheat. Surely something produced in small quantities in old fashioned way is better than mass produced factory production. Would I assume its fresher too?

Some great points thanks x

Stressed, can you check your last post, 3lbs flour and then 3 tbspns flour? Have I missed something here? What oil do you use? and salt (no mention)? Do you use cold water or warm.

I am trying to refect my bread recipes and this is a really useful thread. DS & DD don't really like my wholemeal loaves nothing personal, they just prefer white) so trying to sort out white ones.

We do quite a lot of white bread too. I use
this. Very easy, and it doesn't seem to matter whether I use cold or warm water, or how warm/cold the environment is. It just works. The milk loaf is to die for. Even the wholemeal (not wholemeal bread fan) is better than anything I've ever bought. You can easily sneak in a bit of wholemeal in the white loaf if you are health-conscious, which is what I do...

ok here is my method so far

Get a big bowl
40z any strong bread flour
1/4 tsp dried yeast
water, enough to make a pancake like batter.

cover with clingfilm and leave for a day/overnight.

Next day put bowl back on scales and add
1 lb strong bread flour
1/4 tsp yeast
1 tsp salt
6oz water

mix it all together with a wooden spoon , cover with clingfilm and leave for a day/overnight.

It will have more than doubled have a flat top with bubbles.

knock back, turn onto an oiled board as it can be very sticky, flatten and pull out stretching the gluten threads and then fold in on itself, pick up and form into a ball pulling the dough tight on the top and folding in underneath.
Flour the board, and leave dough to rest for an hour.

Put a lidded casserole dish in hot oven at least 225 degreees, le creuset style is brilliant.
when hot hot hot,put dough gently into dish, slash top and put lid back on.
Bake for 30 mins, take off lid and bake till golden another 10/20 mins.

Longg slow rise makes the best taste and the double oven gets lots of really decent crust.

Best bit listening to the crust crackle as it cools down on a wire rack.

Ok I'm starting this post again. I've been busy doing nothing since bringing this thread up so today I have bought a proper tub of the traditional dried yeast (not the easy stuff). It is now bubbling up and foaming nicely in the corner.

Zanz1bar - I am basing it on your receipe, but will probably cook it in a traditional tin for now.

I havent got around to buying the Shipton Mill flour as the p&p is alot - more than the flour so idealy you need to buy bulk. I'll see how I get on with Doves first. www.shipton-mill.com/

Will keep you posted.

Has anyone bought "Bread Matters" or any other great books?

bought bread matters. And then had a baby. The two are not compatible ime! Will return to it when ds needs less wrangling.

A bread thread! Yay! We haven't bought bread since i was given the river cottage bread book at christmas. The basic recipie is fantastic, though i have adapted it slightly to suit us ie, i use measures rather than weights for ease which has altered the quantities slightly but it still works. And the kneeding technique in it is ace, making it very doable on a day to day basis even with ds 19 weeks...it never requires attention for more than ten minutes at a time so i find it fits round other things really well.

The only downside would be that being so proficient at one method means i often stick to it...so haven't tried sponge, though is in the book.

I can though say that texture and flavour are definatly improved by long or multiple proving.

Haven't even experimented with flour much, just tesco and allison. I believe stone ground flour is better for you as it stays cool through the process, so retains it's nutrients better.

Am glad to hear others experiences etc!

If you're into bread making I really recommend Dan Lepard's 'The handmade loaf'. Some of it is rather OTT for home bread making, IMO (those loaves where you have to be around all bloody day to make them) but generally it's a lovely book and has loads of lovely recipes. Plus I'm a big fan after his MN cookalong threads. He's a star.

sponge method = activating the yeast over a long time, makes bread taste less yeasty, rise well, just delicious

I have to confess I use the sponge method in the bread maker, but oven works fine as well.

mix 1cup of flour with 1 cup of water and half a teaspoon of dried active yeast. leave lightly covered for 6 hours or over night.

add another cup of water, 500g flour, 1 tablespoon oil, 1 teaspoon salt. knead well and let rest for about 1 hour.
knead again, put into baking tin and rest for another hour. bake in the oven at 175 (fan oven) for 50 min.
slather on butter and eat the whole loaf in one go

The river cottage bread handbook is fantastic. I have used the sourdough starter and made some very nice bread - eventually killed it when I left it in the fridge for a few days but before that it was very satifying watching it develop. I use Waitrose Canadian flour as the higher the protein content the better flour is for making bread.

riven sponge method is (i think...from memory) that you mix a batter with only part of the flour you need for your loaf and allow this to rise. It gets lots of holes in (sponge?) and you mix the rest of the flour in just before it hits the oven.

The sourdough starter I make uses wild yeast so no need to add the packaged stuff.

the method I use

I have Bread Matters, lovely book.
Have never tried the sponge method but have used the old dough method (you keep a handful of dough back from the previous baking to add to the fresh batch) and it gives a more interesting flavour.

agree that length of proving time is key.

cross post with sonilaa ...who knows more about it too!

Sorry, just noticed this. it should have said 3 tablespoons sugar, 1 tablespoon salt. I use warm (not hot) water and whatever kind of oil I have on hand, usually either sunflower or light olive. You can use melted butter or stork or whatever as well. Butter gives a lovely flavour but is expensive for everyday use.

The handmade loaf is a fantastic book with really good recipes for all sorts of bread. The kids particularly like the Milk loaf and the almond milk loaf. I like the wholegrain one. I like his 3 ten second kneads thing as well. It gives a really nice crumb to the end product.

Sponge method is when you use a bit of the flour, water and yeast and pre-ferment it for a while. Then you mix the rest in. Works well with about 50% pre-ferment.

Ooh, have fancied a go at sour dough for ages. Must do it! going i remember am anthony bourdain book where if talks about their sour dough starter, saying someone would "feed the bitch", which is what they called it!

Sour dough is good - very easy esp if you have a good starter. I've been given nice ones a few times & generally keep them going a year or so before I get bored of them & neglect them too long between bakings.

Normal bread I've found that reducing the yeast to a minimum level (1 tsp to 4 or 5 lbs flour) then raising over a longer time works well & gives a good flavour.

ooh, my favourite subject!

I have the bread matters book and went on one of Andrew Whitley's excellent courses (Italian baking) a few years ago so I can make a mean ciabatta! The hot cross bun recipe in the book is fabulous too.

I always mix 100g flour (usually Dove's farm malthouse or Waitrose strong white if I don't want bits in it) and 100ml water with a teaspoon of doves farm yeast and leave it to ferment for a couple of days before I do anything else.

The other thing that I find helps improve the texture and flavour (and helps my time management) is to do the first proving in the fridge overnight. I think bring it to room temp (1-2 hours) in the morning.

I tend to use the breadmaker to do the kneading but do the rest by hand and in the oven.

I haven't done sourdough for ages but have been promising a friend I would so this thread might just motivate me! Last time I did it I think I used rye flour to make the starter - the naturally occurring yeasts. I think it takes about a week.

Sorry, posting again!

Habbibu - just saw your post, I know exactly what you mean about bread matters and baby not being entirely compatible - I didn't make much until DS reached about 1 year.

After that I did find it useful in that there are lots of tips about how to make bread according to your own timetable (but I think this comes across on the course more TBH including never being ashamed of using machinery to do the kneading). I don't use the actual recipes all that often though as I tend to mainly make a sinple loaf or rolls most of the time.

I tend to make the sponge/biga on day 1,
dough on day 3 and rise overnight,
shape bread/rolls and bake on day 4 and each step takes about 10 minutes so pretty compatible with a toddler!