Bread making from scratch - not instant method

[bacon]

Am I correct in thinking that shop bought flour isnt brilliant for taste? I am looking at getting flour direct from a mill, its not a bad price but if its got a deeper flavour then its worth it.

Also does/has anyone made bread with the sponge method? Very old fashioned way but once again improves flavour and texture.

Does using fresh yeast make a stronger flavour? I have noticed that the dry stuff doesnt give much richness.

I seem to have become a bit obsesive about bread making....strange but tasty!

Glad there is so much positive talk about this. Half the price of purchasing a mediocre loaf with little taste.

I've eat a few machine made loafs and find them a bit dull and they are small.

Its not difficult, theres a bit of standing around but its simple and can be left. This morning my dough is rising and will knock back tonight to pop in tin and bake tomorrow. Long process but worth it for fresh bread for the weekend.

Can anyone tell me, if its nutritionally beneficial. ie less salt/sugar plus the use of the natural yeast v the commericalised easy yeast. Using a better quality wholesome flour. Does it have the same calories?

I don't knead. I don't use sugar or oil.

I use a home-made wild-yeast starter, I use only flour, water and salt - no oil or sugar. Then I mix with a fork, leave overnight to rise then bake using the NYT no-knead method the next day.

As previously mentioned by other posters, the long proving time is what gives the flavour, from the yeast and symbiotic bacteria.

I use mixes of white flour, wholemeal or rye with carraway.

Hi Bacon

I'm not sure about calories etc although I imagine it is similar.

The bread matters book goes into a lot of detail about how excessive amounts of yeast (23 times what you would use in a homemade loaf) are used in a commercial loaf and about how the quick fermentation used in commercial breadmaking may have contributed to the rise in conditions such as gluten intolerance and coeliac's disease - although I am not sure if any studies have been done.

Also, I rarely use sugar in my loaves - if you are slow fermenting there is really no need. Oil isn't really a necessity either, as meltedmarsbars says.

I also remembered that some of the supermarkets are happy to give you fresh yeast from the bakery for nothing or a few pence. I think there is some controversey over the environmental impact of the fermentation process used to produce these and other (dried) non-organic yeasts as they use surfactants (IIRC) so Doves Farm yeast is a good option if you want to avoid that.

Will your kids eat sourdough? Mine don't like it much at all. I find, as well, that I don't really have time to make slow bread very often, cos I bake for 7 every day, so quick bread is needed! I do like Dan Lepard's minimal intervention method, though, especially for very wet dough.

I always use butter or oil, unless I'm making french bread or whatever, because the bread dries out very quickly if I don't and just isn't as soft. Perhaps it's the way I make it? When I make bread during Lent, I don't use oil or sugar, but I find that the crust isn't as good and the kids just don't like it as much, to be honest. Any tips to make it more palatable for them would be appreciated.

This leave all day, no knead method sounds good for when I start work. Am used to making bread by kneading and proving and kneading and proving.
So for someone who doesnt want a bread maker and who would have 10 spare minutes in the morning to get a batch on and then a little bit of time in the evening to sort it out before baking - which is the easiest less stressy method?

this no-knead one is pretty good

Thank you so much Marmite - that looks great

re nutrition...Seem to recall something about the longer proving making more b vitamins available from the flour...but can't find the source right now. Stone ground flour is definatly ment to be better in this respect.

The river cottage bread book attributes a good part of the flavour to length of proving (have checked my earlier speculation!). It details the process but i'm on my phone so typing it out feels a challenge. I'll sum it up as yeast farts.

ohyoubadkitten i really recommend the river cottage book. The kneeding method is great, so i hardly spend any time kneeding. Didn't realise how ineffectual my kneeding was before!
Have refined the measurements too so it takes ten mins tops with white flour. Sometimes a few mins more for wholemeal. I often use a mixture.

I've got the quantities simplified to the following really easy to remember and works fantastically...

1 kg bread flour
1 sachet yeast
2 teaspoons salt
3 cups warm water (600ml, or 3 proper measuring cups)

You can even buy 1kg bags of flour so you don't need to get the scales out. We stock up when they are on offer. It always works for us though we chuck a table spoon extra water is for wholemeal. If you did this and put in a cool place to rise while you were at work you would be sorted! Now you have two options!

stressed For a good crust i have oven super hot. On top shelf tray for bread, bottom shelf a dish or roasting tin. When ready to bake put kettle on, take out bread tray and put bread on it. Slash top. Put back in oven. Pour boiling water in to other tray. Shut oven and leave for ten mins. Then turn it down a wee bit if it is colouring a lot. Play this bit by eye. Remove tray for last ten mins and you should have a lovely all over crust. The good crust will also stop the loaf drying out too quickly.

Sorry i have waffled on so long.

Ok - Its done. Taste wise nice but still lacking - sort of needs more salt???? for 500g flour should I used a heaped tsp salt? Its nothing really.

The first rise was amazing, but after kneeding it didnt rise that good again and seemed a bit flat - what happened there?

The texture was dense not light so slightly disappointed there.

Sugar is added to help the crust but I have read that it kills the proving. What about malt? Or a small addition of wholemeal.

The river cottage book is propping up the cot at the mo so I'll pull that out later!

hmm... Maybe if the first rise was really good the yeast got a bit over excited and expired?! would have thought it would have been reinvigorated by a little kneed though. If i forget about it or go out my dough often gets neglected and grows huge before i knock it back and is always fine. Though i think it is technically possible for the yeast to die through over proving.

Could the temp in the room have dropped between the first and second proving? I imagine density due to poor second proving. Was this loaf made using sponge method or other?

I use two teaspoons salt for one kilo of flour. I never add sugar but often make half wholemeal, it rises less. All wholemeal is somewhat heavy and worthy! Let us know how it goes on!

Hi Bacon,

Not sure, maybe a bit more salt but the amount you used sounded fine but it is personal taste to some degree.

After the first rising I try to keep as much air in as possible so I don't really knock back or need again - just do the minimum handling I need to do to shape the bread.

Apparently it used to be important to knock back because the yeasts available didn't really give a consistent rise (yeast was once a rare and expensive commodity apparently) but now the first rise is fairly consistent with the yeasts available (although might be a different situation if you are just using the yeasts naturally present for a rye sourdough etc, not sure).

MoonFaceMama No the kitchen stayed the same temp. The first wise was brill. I didnt over kneed it. Yes, sponge method.

MiniMarmite Do I assume then that you pick up the dough and place it into a tin, cos once you touch it doesnt the air bubbles flop? Do you then allow a second rise before the oven?
What you are saying is that I can cook directly from the 1st prove?

I make the sponge over night max 24 hrs.

Anyone else think it would be good to have a live web chat with Dan Lepard?

great idea!