"Ooo no, none of that organic stuff for me, ta..."

[Lizzer]

Ok, I'm a little in shock at this comment I heard the other week and I wondered what your views were?
I consider myself to having been educated on nutrition, environment etc just through what I pick up on the tv, newspapers, through friends etc. Through this I have come to the conclusion that I would love to buy and eat organic produce ALL the time, due to the fact there are no added chemicals to the fruit and veg, that the animals are fed without additives and no anti-biotics are included in their diet and generally it is how ALL FOOD was not THAT long ago...

However, at the moment it is more pricey, budgeting is a daily part of my life but I am aware that the more people who buy the produce the cheaper it will become, so I buy what I can afford...

What scares me is the ignorance about it all is staggering. Take one woman, mid-twenties, 2 young children, well educated. When she spotted an organic milk carton at a mutual friends' house that was about to be poured into our cups of tea she quickly said, "Oh is it organic? Oh I don't like that stuff, I'll just have mine black!"
Anyone else had similar encounters?

I am with Tigger and SofiaAmes on this one too! "Natural/organic" does not necessarily mean "good for you" and "chemical/man-made" does not necessarily mean "bad for you".

"Organically" farmed animals are not necessarily better looked after than traditionally farmed animals. The "organic" certification has nothing to do with how the animals are looked after, just whether they have been fed any "non-organic" feedstuffs, whether they have been grazing pastures treated/fertilized with "non-organic" treatments or have been treated with medicines (antibiotics/anthelmintics/vaccines etc).

In many environments not treating animals with these medicines is very detrimental to their health and can lead to their death! I'm sure those of you that are supporting "organic" food wouldn't want to be responsible for undrenched animals suffering from large worm burdens etc. To get the "organic" certification, a property must not use anthelmintics (worm/fluke drenches) on any animals on their property (or can have a quarantine paddock where treated animals are kept but can not return to the rest of the farm) or they lose their certification. I know this to be fact as for part of my job I have been trying to help farmers who want to go down the "organic" pathway avoid having all their animals sick or dying from parasitic diseases. My job is in Australia, however, the "organic" certifiers assure me this regulation is the same world wide.

Tigger had another very good point, farmers do not run around willy nilly treating their animals with "chemicals" just for the sake of it as these "chemicals" cost a lot of money both to buy and in labour to administer. Farmers are VERY busy people and are not in the habit of inventing non-essential jobs to do! Farmers are, in general, also very serious about the wellbeing of their animals, if for no other reason than that the animals are their livelihood. Again, my hands-on experience is with Australian farmers but I presume UK farmers to be of similar mind.

I can't really comment on the benefits or otherwise of "organic" fruit and veg - not my area of specialty - but just wanted to clear up to apparent misconception for anyone interested that "organic" animal products do not necessarily come from "happier/better cared for" animals.

Ooh, Tigger, I might take you up on that invite one day when I'm resident in the UK again! It sounds too good to resist and I'd love to look round your farm.

But does anyone really choose organic food because they think the alternative might give them cancer? It's certainly not my reason for doing so. Take salmon for example, I simply cannot eat the factory farmed stuff any longer as after getting used to the organic variety it tastes fatty and vile. Same goes for those peculiarly rock hard tasteless tomatoes compared to the organic version.

And Chelle, many surveys in the UK have shown that animal welfare does tend to be better on organic farms. For organic free range eggs and pork, the benefits to anumal welfare are more explicit but experience shows that the treatment of sheep and beef also tends to be better, particularly for animals raised in the UK.

And Tigger, I agree with you on the perils of organic food that has travelled a long distance. I for one always try to buy British.

SofiaAmes but there is no evidence anywhere in the world which shows that the higher price of organic fruit and veg has led to a decline in consummption of these products. If organic fruit and veg produces higher carcinogens, why were cancer rates so much lower before pesticidesbegan to dominate, which is of course relatively recently. I am not saying that pesticides cause cancer but you seem to be saying we are at greater risk of cancer through eating non-organic rather than organic food and I just don't understand this.

Chelle, I'm not an expert in this field, but I'm sure that there is a big difference between treating a sick animal with antibiotics, and feeding the whole herd/ flock "just in case". Battery farmed hens "need" to be fed antibiotics with their grain, as they are so close together that infections are transmitted very quickly. Free range hens are less likely to catch/ transmit infections due to the space that they have, therefore the requirement for antibiotics is much lower. I don't recall seeing any packets of "Organic Battery Eggs" they are all free range. In this instance, I believe that organic hens do live a nicer life, and FWIW, I would much prefer to eat an organic chicken than a non-organic one, they taste nicer.

From the Soil Association Website:

Animal welfare

The Soil Association insists on stringent animal welfare standards.

Animals have access to fields and are allowed to express their natural behaviour patterns. Animals always have comfortable bedding, usually straw, and plenty of space when they are housed. Organic standards minimise the negative effects of transporting animals.

Organic livestock farmers can manage their animals without the routine use of antibiotics and other drugs because they run a healthy, balanced system; not keeping too many animals on a given area, keeping a mixture of species wherever possible and using natural feedstuffs. Grazing animals like cows and sheep are fed mainly on herb and clover rich grass.

Homeopathy and herbal remedies are used widely in organic livestock management. In a case of acute illness, where the animal might otherwise suffer, a conventional drug treatment would be used.

The following is taken from the Organic Trade Association of the US's website (Soil Assoc. in the US says the same. No sulfites are allowed in organic food production. And Chelle, all authorities stipulate animal welfare standards for organic food which as Tissy says in any case depend on animals having more space.

Processing Additives

The following additives are not allowed in organic processing: sulfites, nitrates or nitrites; any ingredient known to contain higher levels of heavy metals or toxic residues than permitted by federal regulation; and any non-agricultural ingredient that is not organically produced unless it is designated as acceptable on The National List.

And apparently ALL wine excpet organic wine contains sulfites

Ooooh, I do like a glass of organic wine!

Croppy, life expectancy has increased since farming methods changed (not implying a link) so cancer rates would be expected to rise too, as cancer is overwhelmingly a disease connected to old age. For example, the one in ten risk of breast cancer that is so often touted about only applies once you are in your eighties - the risk for younger women is comparatively tiny.

I agree with you Aloha, old age leads to higher cancer rates NOT organic fruit and veg!.

Out of interest Sofiames what is your view on the US practice of pumping their cattle full of growth hormones?. This is banned in the EU.

Another reason for increases in some cancer rates is the large increase in women smoking that started 20 or 30 years ago!
Croppy, I think that sulfites may be a recent addition to that list. Also, unfortunately, not everyone who calls themselves organic follows the guidelines set by the Organic Trade Assoc. or the Soil Association. This is one of the big problems with Organic food and for that matter Natural Remedies. There is very little regulation, so unless you are well educated and well versed in label reading, you may not realize what you are getting.

My understanding is that Sulfites are naturally occurring in wine which is why the label says No Added Sulfites rather than No Sulfites.

Gracie, I don't know enough about the mechanics of giving cows growth hormone to comment on whether it is ethical. Just because it is banned in the EU doesn't mean that it is bad. As far as taste goes, I am not a big beef fan (would rather have lamb or goat), but if I had to choose based on flavor, I would take Kobe beef (fed beer and massaged daily) over either American or EU beef.

I don't think all Organic meats/fish are better/worse. I prefer farm raised goat/chicken over free range ones. I also prefer farm raised catfish to caught ones. I do prefer non-farm raised salmon. However there is the issue of depleting the oceans/seas when you have non-farm raised fish. Nothing is black and white.

Organic Farmers ARE allowed to use antibiotics if the animal is showing no signs of improving from an illness where conventional methods have not been used, they have to get a certificate from the vet and the vet must tend the sick animal.

Believe me, in some cases of pnuemonia and other diseases, prevention IS better than the cure. I have seen sheep and cattle infested with the Fluke worm, not a pretty sight, they cannot shit any thicker than water, and have large jowels below their jaw, and without treatment usually die.

The Soil Association says that the cattle and sheep eat "clover enriched grass", so most of the cattle within the UK that are outside on grass, as most grass re-seeds contain clover mix in them, although to much clover can cause bloating in cattle, so they have to get into the field before the clover is to far established.

Growth Hormones, ah now their is another subject, this is what I am trying to point out, if we get a Free World Trade of Food then you as the public could be eating Meat that has had Growth Promoters put in it, eg Finaplex and others as well.

The best growth promoter for cattle is either grass, or barley or beet pulp, we use a mix of barley and beet pulp for our cattle during the winter as an extra ration with their silage. The weather also contributes to a lot of diseases, the wet mild weather causes pnuemonia of which several violent strains are going about at the moment, fluke in cattle and sheep, because of the wet weather (fluke thrives in wet weather). Many farmers have large amounts of cattle wintering together because of ease of feeding, to save their field from becoming completely gittered up and useless for next year. So in that case we get overstocking of a field, which can lead to worm infestation and other things as well.

One, thing, many of the diseases we are seeing now in farming are becoming more immune to the various antibiotics we are using, apparently these are called super bugs. So the vet says, and the main point of conversation when we are out for the night, "how many of your calves have got pnuemonia and what bottle of stuff are you using this week!!!!!"

But to label food as "organic" in the UK you have to have it certified as such. There are a number of agenices who do this and their standards don't appear too vary hugely and in any case all are based on the EU legislative guidelines. This is probably a dumb question but if sulfites are naturally occurring in wines how come they are not in organic wine?

I always thought Kobe beef was in effect organic?

I think battery chickens suffer terrible cruelty and I try not to buy it (sounds feeble but I know it must be in most ready meals/takeaways etc which I get).Free range is OK for me though. Go for meat from the local farmer's market or if at the supermarket, buy the stuff that promises better animal welfare. Agree that smoking is so terrible for health it seems completely irrational to me to smoke and buy organic food for health reasons. There is no contest at all between the unlikely & theoretical risk to health from pesticide residues and the very definite and severe risk to health from smoking.

80% of eggs used by the food industry in the UK are apparently from battery hens. This (along with the additives) is one of the main reasons why I try and avoid convenience type foods and prefer to cook from scratch.

How many healthy eaters give chicken nuggets to their children though. I'll put my hands up to that one but not now I've seen them made. Chicken nuggets have to win the most undesirable production award(chicken sludge jet washed off the bone) you'll never be able to feed one to your child again!

Sofieames, you've raised some interesting points, but I can't take you seriously when you say you prefer 'farm raised' chicken to free range. Come on, you've got chicken squashed in dark (stops em getting aggressive) hen houses unable to peck and forage,getting fatty versus healthier chickens that can wander around breathing fresh air eating grain with less drugs in it. Common sense tells you which will be better for you.

Not to mention which is better for the chicken Lil!. Sofia Ames, in this country, most organic salmon is farmed as wild is unbelievably expensive.

Lil, I was talking about the taste of farm raised chicken, not the conditions. Actually to tell you the truth, I have no idea what conditions the chicken I buy are raised under. I like Tesco's brand chickens the best for taste. I used to raise chickens and frankly I think mine would have been better off not running around freely, but separated from each other as they pecked each other incessantly (hence the saying pecking order) to the point of bleeding. They were egg laying chickens so I can't comment on their flavor, but although the eggs were fresher they didn't taste any different than the ones in the supermarket. Then again, this was Berkeley in the 70's so the supermarket ones were probably free range too.

Croppy, sulfites are in organic wine. I will try to do a bit of research to find out exactly why.

Croppy, I was very lucky...there was a guy who worked for my parents when I was growing up who's hobby was salmon fishing (pacific ocean) and he would then sell the extra salmon to my parents. We ate a lot of fresh and smoked wild salmon!

for anyone interested in this subject see the friends of the earth "real food" campaign web page

http://www.foe.org.uk/campaigns/real_food/index.html

I had eight organically raised free range hens. Their eggs were delicious and one of the local foxes thought the chickens were too

The thing that most people MISS about Organic Food is that, if it is so "natural, friendly, etc, antibiotic free, fertiliser free, green grass" then why the hell is it not cheaper??? Answer, they have to halve their stock, so, they have to up the bloody price.

90% of the meat that you all eat comes from farms that DON'T over use antibiotics, this is the point that most people miss. Just because it has not been endorsed by the crettins at the Soil Association, then it does not mean that it is bad for you. Come on, I do know of some "so called" Organic Farmers who use fertilisers that they are not meant to, but their produce can be sold on the shelf and all those who buy it think that it is better for you than my meat, think again, becuase you are sooooooo wrong!

Tigger I am so glad you are here to give us the facts from a farming perspective. I can see this is a subject very close to your heart. It must really bug you the way myths about this kind of thing are perpetuated.
What do you think of the rise in farmers markets? Do they offer farmers a better deal for their produce?