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"Ooo no, none of that organic stuff for me, ta..."

100 replies

Lizzer · 06/12/2002 13:37

Ok, I'm a little in shock at this comment I heard the other week and I wondered what your views were?
I consider myself to having been educated on nutrition, environment etc just through what I pick up on the tv, newspapers, through friends etc. Through this I have come to the conclusion that I would love to buy and eat organic produce ALL the time, due to the fact there are no added chemicals to the fruit and veg, that the animals are fed without additives and no anti-biotics are included in their diet and generally it is how ALL FOOD was not THAT long ago...

However, at the moment it is more pricey, budgeting is a daily part of my life but I am aware that the more people who buy the produce the cheaper it will become, so I buy what I can afford...

What scares me is the ignorance about it all is staggering. Take one woman, mid-twenties, 2 young children, well educated. When she spotted an organic milk carton at a mutual friends' house that was about to be poured into our cups of tea she quickly said, "Oh is it organic? Oh I don't like that stuff, I'll just have mine black!"
Anyone else had similar encounters?

OP posts:
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Tortington · 29/04/2003 21:35

here here rhuby
flatulance be banned

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Rhubarb · 29/04/2003 14:25

If they are going to stop cows farting I think they should also close down curry houses and put stoppers up men's bottoms - if that stuff ain't toxic I don't know what is!
Mr Bush - your weapons of mass destruction are to be found in the vicinity of men's arses after a vindaloo in the early hours of Saturday morning in every major city in the Western world!

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Tigger2 · 28/04/2003 14:19

lucy123, what pollution in the countryside?

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Tigger2 · 28/04/2003 14:18

Do you know that cows are now polluting the air we breath because of the gas they produce? Good grief will they now ban cows? Whatever next.

Also it takes 3 years before a farmer can become "totally" organic, they have to go through a conversion period. But if they decide to stop they can go back to "conventional" farming overnight.

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lucy123 · 27/04/2003 20:24

That is interesting.

I think the counter-argument would be that even though these residues sound nasty, they haven't found much evidence concerning harmful effects....yet.

I just hate the idea of chemicals kicking around in my and dd's bodies for years. Generally I buy organic when I can afford it because of the pollution in the countryside rather than my own health, but I might have to go and check on that compost now...

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WideWebWitch · 27/04/2003 20:04

Pupuce, this is interesting. I'd love to hear your view too SofiaAmes. I've just read The Great Food Gamble by John Humphrys and that's interesting on the subject too. I haven't bought farmed salmon since although it hadn't really worried me before (I hadn't thought about it much though!)

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pupuce · 27/04/2003 19:35

For the scientific minded.... or not
Here is something I have found.... I am sure one or two mumsnetter will find the counter arguments.... SofiaAmes????

EATING ORGANICS CUTS KIDS? PESTICIDE LOADS

January 31, 2003

A University of Washington study analyzed pesticide breakdown products
(metabolites) in pre-school aged children and found that children eating
organic fruits and vegetables had concentrations of pesticide
metabolites six times lower than children eating conventional produce.
The study compared metabolite concentrations of organophosphorus (OP)
pesticides (a class of insecticides that disrupt the nervous system) in
the urine of 39 urban and suburban children aged 2 to 4 years. The
researchers' findings point to a relatively simple way for parents to
reduce their children's chemical loads--serve organic produce.

The authors focused on children's dietary pesticide exposure because
children are at greater risk for two reasons: they eat more food
relative to body mass, and they eat foods higher in pesticide
residues--such as juices, fresh fruits and vegetables. An earlier study
cited by the authors looked at pesticide metabolites in the urine of 96
urban and suburban children and found OP pesticides in the urine of all
children but one. The parents of the child with no pesticide metabolites
reported buying exclusively organic produce.

Researchers recruited children for the study outside of conventional and
organic grocery stores in the Seattle metropolitan region and asked
parents to record all food consumed in a three-day period prior to
collecting their child's urine over the next 24 hours. Based on the food
diaries, the study assigned the children into groups consuming at least
75% organic or at least 75% conventional fruits and vegetables. Parents
were also asked about household pesticide use in their homes and on
gardens, lawns and pets. Although the authors found that parents of
children eating conventional diets were more likely to report some home
pesticide use, they did not find significant differences in
concentrations of pesticide metabolites based on this use.

The children's urine was tested for five metabolites of OP pesticides
which are registered in the U.S. and frequently applied to food crops.
The study focused on these pesticides because they are metabolized into
several easily recognizable compounds. Breakdown products of pesticides
such as malathion, azinphos-methyl, parathion, oxydemeton-methyl,
phosmet, methyl parathion, methidatihon and dimethoate were found at the
highest concentrations. Of these pesticides, azinphos-methyl and phosmet
are the two primarily used on fresh produce within the U.S. Lower
concentrations were found of breakdown products from diazinon and
chlorpyrifos.

The researchers found median concentrations of OP metabolites six times
lower in the children with organic diets. Average concentrations for the
organic group were actually nine times lower, suggesting that some
children eating conventional produce had much higher concentrations of
OP metabolites in their systems.

Because many of the OP pesticides break down into identical metabolites,
the study did not provide information on the specific pesticides
children were exposed to. However, the study did determine that some
children were at risk for consuming more OP pesticides than the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) considers "safe" as a daily dose.
The researchers concluded that organic fruits and vegetables can reduce
exposure levels from above to below EPA chronic reference doses,
"thereby shifting exposures from a range of uncertain risk to a range of
negligible risk."

These findings confirm what is already known about pesticide residues on
conventional produce. Consumers Union analyzed U.S. Department of
Agriculture residue data for all pesticides for 1999 and 2000 and warned
parents of small children to limit or avoid conventionally grown foods
known to have high residues such as cantaloupes, green beans (canned or
frozen), pears, strawberries, tomatoes (Mexican grown) and winter
squash. The Seattle study, which reflects children's food diaries, adds
apples to that list.

Susan Kegley, staff scientist at Pesticide Action Network states, "We
have been concerned for a long time about continuous exposure to
organochlorine pesticides because they persist in our bodies for years.
This study reveals that we are continuously exposed to OP pesticides,
not because they linger in our bodies, but because we are persistently
being exposed through the food we eat every day."

The study's main conclusion--eating organic fruits and vegetables can
significantly reduce children's pesticide loads--is information that
parents can act on to reduce their children's risk. A secondary
conclusion--that small children may be exceeding "safe" levels of
pesticide exposure--is information that regulators should act on and, at
the very least, reduce uses of these pesticides on food crops.
Related News:

Sources:

Organophosphorus pesticide exposure or urban and suburban pre-school
children with organic and conventional diets, Cynthia L. Curl, Richard
A. Fenske, Kai Elgethun, Environmental Health Perspectives, October 13,
2002, National Institute of Environmental Sciences, EHP Online,
www.ehponline.org; Do You Know What You're Eating? February 1999,
Consumers Union of United States, Inc,
www.consumersunion.org/food/do_you_know2.htm; Pesticide residues
in conventional, IPM-grown and organic foods: Insights from three U.S.
data sets, Food Additives and Contaminants, May 2002, www.consumersunion.org/food/organicsumm.htm

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donnie · 13/12/2002 11:18

I live in Whetstone ! and the farmers market is excellent, I can recommend it. Loads of vegetables and organic meat, a fish man and a cheese counter, a chutney man , a sausage couple and other stuff.....take lots of cash.....every Friday from 11am.

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bossykate · 12/12/2002 22:37

juno, i confused you with lucy123 who said she was thinking about joining foe... doh!

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GillW · 12/12/2002 22:18

For those of you outside London, the website for Farmers Markets is here .

Another site which is quite good for finding sources of local produce, including the Farmers Markets is Bigbarn

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Juno · 12/12/2002 20:27

Hi BossyKate, thanks for the info on the farmers' markets. I'll give Whetstone a try one Friday when I'm not working.

Am also a member of FoE but don't actually DO a lot... My specialism is fretting about the state of the world - GMOs, non-Caribbean bananas, battery-farmed hens and pigs, air miles (these are my food-related frets, in no particular order!). Honestly, it's a nightmare going round the supermarket with me, cos not only do I worry that I shouldn't be there (we should all be at our local shops/farmers markets etc, etc) but then I can't buy this cos it's been flown from Africa, can't buy that cos it's drenched in pesticides (did anyone read Monty Don in The Observer talking about pesticide residues on commercial cabbages and potatoes?), can't buy the other cos it's over-packaged, etc, etc, etc ad nauseam! I am exactly the kind of person Suzanne Moore used to rail about - drenched in Guardian-reading, middle class guilt!! Did get as far as buying some carrot seeds two years ago but, despite having a sizable garden, haven't actually got round to planting them. Sigh.

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bossykate · 12/12/2002 16:55

hi juno

i grew up in sunny wembley!

here is the url for London Farmers Markets >>http://www.lfm.org.uk/index.asp

sorry, have been too lazy to find out how to do links!

the site gives information about - obviously! - Farmers Markets in london. looking at it, i think the nearest one for you would be either ealing or whetstone.

i joined friends of the earth last year although i would probably qualify as one of their more useless members. if you are interested the foe website at at www.foe.org.uk.

tigger, it is really useful to have your perspective on these issues. like juno, i believe small independent farms are a necessity for a healthy food chain, whether organic or not.

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Juno · 12/12/2002 16:35

Fascinating thread! I just wanted to respond to Tigger2's last but one post, where she gets cross about the price of organic food (if I've read her right).

I know this is a bit of a middle class complacent view, but I don't mind in the least paying more for, say, quality-reared meat, be it British organic or from a farm such as Tigger2's. I think the more organic AND small-scale non-organic but responsible farms there are, the better. Hopefully with the premium on the food they can employ more staff, thus indirectly addressing rural unemployment and poverty and the lack of services in rural areas.

If there are so-called organic farmers out there who are breaking the rules, well, they should be shopped to the Organic Police( ) and have their certification withdrawn, but just because people break a rule doesn't mean I can't approve of the rule in the first place. I thought you were a bit harsh on the people at the Soil Association.

Incidentally, where do you sell your produce, Tigger2? Do you have a website?

I'd love to use farmers' markets more, but they're a bit thin on the ground in Wembley. We have an organic box delivered (there's some black salsify sitting in the fridge at this very moment - any ideas on preparation, anyone?!) but I agree, it seems insane to fly in organic produce, as the supermarkets often do.

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Lucy123 · 12/12/2002 16:19

tigger2 - you sound like you're doing a good job. You're probably right about preventative treatement for worms etc - what I object to is preventative use of antibiotics (not really because of the meat, but because this will result in more antibiotic resistant bacteria). To be honest they should ban that rather than haggle over labelling.

On the organic thing - I buy it if I can just because I grew up in Norfolk where there seems to be a much greater incidence of asthma (in fact mine cleared up when I moved away) - crop spraying is extensive there. I am dismayed to learn about the pesticides thing however. Maybe I'll join friends of the earth.

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Tigger2 · 12/12/2002 14:27

The space in which an animal is kept in a field NORMALLY, the field is stocked to the per headage of animal per acre, now there are some farmers who overstock their fields, BUT there are those of us who don't. Another thing, because I use antibiotics for pnuemonia or joint-ill and doesn't makes NO difference to the meat, as we do not sel the animal when it is still within the withdrawal period for the antibiotic.

The only difference between an Organic Farmer and many of us conventional farmers is, that we prevent disease, we don't let it happen, animals that are in some cases not treated properly can become immeciated due to worm infestation which can lead to severe lung damage in some cattle and sheep if Lung Worm is allowed to establish, but then some would say that is the way to farm. That is not the way to farm to let animals suffer because they have worm infestation, anyone seen a worm ridden cow, bull, sheep? We have bought cattle at the market, brought them home, given them a dose of Panacur and within a week there is a distinct improvement in that animal, because they have had worms.

Our hill farm (all 2500 acres of it), is basically "Free Range" and our blackie lambs will be on some supermarket shelves now. Can't beat a good bit of Heather Reared Lamb!. We have pure bred Belted Galloways and pure bred Red Galloways on there as well, now on the defence of those who are anti-dosing, the Galloway Cattle are very resistant to most bugs and worms as well, we haven't dosed the cattle there at all as they have shown no signs of worms.

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GeorginaA · 12/12/2002 10:16

I always thought the flavour of corn-fed chicken was the nicest. But since organic has become more fashionable there seems to be more "plain" organic on the shelves and corn-fed is more rare (either that or consumers viewing the slightly yellow meat suspiciously). Shame.

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Croppy · 12/12/2002 08:26

I will buy non-organic beef and lamb (although I firmly believe that the free range/ organic variety tastes infinitely better) but the treatment of cattle and sheep just isn't so much of an issue. And as Soupdragon says, it is less the antibiotics and so on that bother me (in fact they don't at all) just the conditions under which the animals are reared. This includes transportation issues and so on as well.

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SoupDragon · 12/12/2002 08:20

I agree with Croppy, of course it matters how much space they have and the conditions in which the animals are kept are very important.

For me, with meat, it is more of a "free range" thing than "organic". To me, it's more important that the animals are kept in humane conditions rather than a question of whether they've been dosed with some "non organic" medicine to protect their health. I'd like to think it's only to genuinely protect their health rather than just dosing them up against everything though.

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Croppy · 12/12/2002 07:39

I am confused by the space issue - are you saying that conditions for say pigs kept in crowded sties as opposed to being able to roam freely over a large field makes no difference to their welfare?

Personally I wouldn't buy battery chicken versus free range if I thought it tasted better because I don't want to be party to such a cruel practice. I never buy anything commercially produced containing chicken or eggs for that very reason.

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Chelle · 11/12/2002 23:52

My point exactly, Tigger2, thankyou!

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jasper · 11/12/2002 20:27

Croppy I am interested in the taste issue. If you thought the non free range one tasted better than the free range would you buy it instead?

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Tigger2 · 11/12/2002 19:37

Croppy, doesn't matter how much space they have.

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Croppy · 11/12/2002 08:35

Remeber Chelle, you are coming from an Australian perspective where space is not nearly so much of a consideration as Europe. SofiaAmes, sulfites are in some organic wines but not most (but they are apparently universally added to all non-organic wines). Are sulfites used by non-organic farmers?

I for one far prefer the taste of free range organic chicken to Tesco's non free range version.

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Croppy · 11/12/2002 08:35

Remeber Chelle, you are coming from an Australian perspective where space is not nearly so much of a consideration as Europe. SofiaAmes, sulfites are in some organic wines but not most (but they are apparently universally added to all non-organic wines). Are sulfites used by non-organic farmers?

I for one far prefer the taste of free range organic chicken to Tesco's non free range version.

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Chelle · 11/12/2002 04:00

Tissy, Croppy et al,

I agree with you on the issue of battery vs free-range hens and pigs in piggeries etc where anthibiotic/anthelmintic pre-mix is added to their feed on a routine basis. I was actually commenting on extensively grazed animals, such as sheep, cattle, goats etc where animals are raised outdoors in large areas. Organic ceritifiers do state that you can treat a sick animal but that animal must be removed from the paddocks that are certified "organic" grazing areas, and they can't return.

Animals grazed extensively can not really be described as living in crowded or cramped conditions, such as battery hens or sows in piggeries, however, they still suffer from many parasitic diseases which do require preventive medications rather than treatment of animals appearing ill. For the majority of parasitic infections the animal is in a fairly dire state before the animal owner can notice any symptoms and animals left untreated are spreading the infection to other animals, even if they are not living in cramped quarters.

Similarly for pigs, if they are kept indoors in a piggery they require antibiotics to prevent disease but if they are grazed outdoors, they are subjected to parasite infections that can be as detrimental to them as any bacterial infection.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not against people trying to produce "organic" food, but I do object to the way people use the term "organic" and many of the veterinary chemicals available today offer many more benefits to animal health and wellbeing than any of you seem to realise.....and no, I do not work for a pharmaceutical company....the advice I give to Australian sheep and cattle graziers involves a lot more management strategies and breeding for parasite resisatnce to control parasite problems rather than just pouring drench down their throats!

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