I can't make good bread

[CatJumperTwat]

I bought a bread maker and have tried recipe after recipe, all disasters. Where am I going wrong? Do you have any tried and tested recipes for wholemeal?

Loaf 1, wholemeal, made according to a recipe that came with the breadmaker. Water, butter, salt, yeast, milk powder, white flour, wholemeal flour. Didn't rise so was very dense and unpleasant.

Loaf 2, same recipe but I added more yeast to help the rise. Same result.

Loaf 3, tried an online recipe (www.allrecipes.com/recipe/17215/best-bread-machine-bread/). Actually this did work in that it rose and came out bread-shaped, but it had no flavour. I don't really want white bread anyway.

Loaf 4, pre-made wholemeal bread mix. All I did was add water as per the instructions. When I peeked the dough lookded good, but at some point it must have collapsed. Came out about 1.5 inches thick but at least tastes nice.

The yeast is well in date and comes in little sealed packets so shouldn't be dead.
I'm using warm water, not cold or hot.
I'm using strong bread flour.
I'm selecting the correct programme for the type of bread.
Loaf #3 did rise and looked how bread should look, so I assume there isn't some fundamental fault with the bread machine itself.

What else can I try?

I think lukewarm means only just warm. Definitely not bath temperature.

That recipe specified 45C, not lukewarm!

If loaf 4 rose too much and then collapsed, either it was too wet or it overproved. I mostly make bread by hand now, but if using a bread making try opening it about 5 minutes after it's started kneading the dough. The dough should feel tacky but not sticky (bit like playdough texture, not leaving bits all over your hands). If it's crumbly it needs more water, add a tablespoon or two. If it's really sticky try 30 ml less next time.

Overproving can either be too much yeast or warmer water than the recipe was written for. How much yeast are you putting in per 500g flour, and what temperature water did you use for loaf 4?

45C is considered "lukewarm" and is the perfect temp for the water, but should not be hotter than that. The other thing is never put salt on top of yeast. Salt should be added last because it retards the growth of the yeast.

I used to have this problem, but I have no bread fear now, and even my husband, who has low baking confidence can bake great loaf. We have a Panasonic breadmaker and use four scoops (500g, I think) of flour, 400ml water, a blob of fresh yeast and a large teaspoon of salt. I know this works because I kept trying until it did.

Once the dough is mixed, you can see a ball of sticky dough - too sticky better than too dry. When I first started with the bread maker recipe, I found that I always had to add more water, and 400ml seems to work. 30-60mins later, it's doubled in size. I lift the lid to check - while temperature of water, will affect results, it doesn't seem to matter so much with the breadmaker because it warms the ingredients before mixing.

What do your loaves look like? Do they rise and then deflate? Not rise at all? Dense and damp? If you google troubleshoot bread, you'll find good advice. My bread improved greatly when I started using more water.

Just remembered that you did say what went wrong - loaves 1 and 2 sound like not enough water. The good loaf sounds as if it didn't have enough salt.

I also missed that I add a plug, probably a tablespoon of olive oil.

@CatJumperTwat are you sure it's not the bread maker? Before I bought mine two years ago I did quite a lot of reading online about them and the general consensus was to invest in a Panasonic, cheaper ones weren't great.

Get a Panasonic bread maker and to get a perfect rise add a teaspoon of powdered vitamin c absolutely foolproof.

Should be opposite. You don’t want to go over 40% whole meal to 60% strong white bread flour. This is because it’s the yeast reacting with the gluten in flour that causes the dough to rise, and wholemeal flour has very little gluten in it. The higher the % of whole meal, the more dense your bread will be. If you want a light fluffy bread, stick to 50/50 of wholemeal to white.

Certain other flours have different gluten contents as well- for example rye flour has even less gluten than wholemeal so you use it sparingly. Corn meal (polenta) can also be used, but has zero gluten so isn’t going to rise with yeast, you need some bicarbonate if you’re going to make a loaf with a bit of corn for taste and texture.

But since you are using recipes designed for your machine, I think there might actually be a fault with the bread machine. I’d take it back for a replacement or invoke the warranty in your shoes. Bread machines are often mostly fail with a success now and then when they are on their last legs.

Bread machine recipes are relatively new. I hand bake bread and the recipes and processes are different. But my hand baking knowledge means I can go off piste from the recipes.

I disagree with the method listed earlier. You want to put water in first, then oil, then salt, then flour. Then make a hollow in the flour and add sugar and yeast together. Then pour on top any seedy bits you want, I use the Grape Tree Omega 3 seed mix. It comes in a big bags premixed and far cheaper than buying separately.

With bread machines, you should be using cold water. They’re not designed to use pre-warmed water.

You made a successful white loaf (loaf 3) OP so I don't think it's a fault with the machine. It's much more likely to be an issue with ingredients or recipes. It's notable that many of the online reviews in the link you posted for your machine complain about the poor recipes that came with it.

Whilst Panasonic has consistently topped the surveys and I'm personally a fan (it's what I've had for years and it's still going strong) it is expensive and there are other brands which cost less and still do a good job.

As to order of ingredients, as long as certain ones are kept apart there are different ways to achieve this and I expect different manufacturers will recommend different approaches. My instruction/recipe booklet recommends the dry ingredients first with the wet ingredients on top. That's the way I've always done it and it works for me and my machine. It may work differently with another machine.

I've used 'pre-warmed' water ie cold water from the tap with a splash of hot to take the chill off for 20+ years. No ill effects on either my bread or my machine.

I think it all goes to show there are many ways of going about it. Stick with your machine and try some different recipes OP, dontslip's looks a good one and very like mine. Keep the faith, you'll get there!

I use this one from Scottish mum's. Fantastic recipe. Never failed yet!
Yeast, flour, salt but only 5g, weigh the water to 315g -cold from the tap, 25g oil (never tried butter in it though...), 2lb white loaf setting medium crust.

www.google.com/amp/s/scottishmum.com/2014/04/breadmaker-recipe-basic-white-loaf/amp/

Also try:
www.google.com/amp/s/scottishmum.com/2014/06/breadmaker-softies-recipe-or-bread-rolls-baps-burger-buns-morning-rolls-whatever-you-call-them/amp/

For baps which are better than shop bought! 1/4 of the cost too (electric excluded)....

Hope it helps. Good luck

Make sure you don't add the salt and yeast directly together. You can always pre activate yeast and add when nice and bubbly. My advice for good bread is ditch the machine and learn what it feels like in the hands 🙂

I've got a bread maker and always use cold water straight from the tap, never had any problems. Are you using recipes that are specific to the machine you've got? As I'm guessing they all have slightly different programs.

Try making it by hand rather than a bread maker. Do a basic loaf first. Don't add loads of Ingredients

500g white flour,
1 heaped tsp fast acting yeast
1 tsp salt.

You dont need sugar.

Put flour in a bowl. Add yeast one side and salt the other. Do the yeast first. Add about 350 ml blood warm water. (It should feel neutral to your hand). Mix or knead - you can use a Dutch whisk.

Leave until doubled in size. You can put somewhere cool and leave over night. In my house doubled in size takes about 3 hours. Knock back (knead again) and put in a tin. Leave for about an hour then put a slash for the middle ( use a raxor blade). Cook at about 220 for about 40 mins.

I had a bread maker but threw it out.

I know make all sorts of bread including fool proof sourdough (which you can make the night before and pop in the oven the next morning).

Long and slow gets better flavour.

Even if your yeast is in date, it will deteriorate once opened, especially when kept in the cupboard. Buy some yeast sachets and keep them in the freezer

The issue will be the yeast. It's always the yeast.
Check that the type of yeast in the recipe is the type of yeast you are using.
Fresh yeast, active dry yeast and instant yeast are not the same things.
They can be substituted for each other but you'll need to use different quantities and in slightly different ways.
I've not used a bread maker before but I think* they usually take instant yeast, which isn't want you've been using. And would explain why the recipe in which you added water and yeast first worked the best- the active fry yeast that you posted earlier needs to be activated in water before you use it.

Your warm water should feel really warm to your fingers. Warmer than lukewarm.

And you need strong flour. It has the most gluten.

My breadmaker specifically says to use cold water, and Paul Hollywood recommends a max of 20°C but preferably colder. So I'm not sure it's that.