veggie dilemma

[ionesmum]

I've been veggie since I was 18. Dh only eats chicken and fish but doesn't like most veggie things. Dd is having veggie and fish. Life would be so much easier for me when dd is a bit bigger if I ate fish too, then I could cook just one meal in the evening instead of two or even three. I do like and miss fish but I also have moral principles about eating anything that has been alive. Has anyone else gone back on being veggie? Or do other veggies think this is a terrible thing to do?

I have been veggie since age 9! I was a very strong willed child! I was breifly a vegan but gave that up when I got pregnant for the first time, as I didn't have the time or energy to put into cooking for myself. Anyway, personally I would never go back to eating animal products, mainly for moral reasons, but also for health. My kids are being brought up veggie too, but I don't have the 'problem' of a partner to consider.

Don't know if this is any help Ionesmum. My sister became a vegetariian at about 18 and stayed that way for about ten years.
When pregnant she had strong cravings for chicken and fish!
Since having her two kids ( now 6 and 4) she has gone back on being vegetarian and eats small amounts of chicken and fish.
I am not sure if this has involved any soulsearching on her part or not; it is not really something I have discussed with her as she is quite a sensitive question and I would hate her to interpret any questioning on my part as a kind of "call yourself a vegetarian?" attack.

On the other hand, I have a friend who has been vegetarian for a long time and her dh has sort of become one for simplicity as it is she who does the cooking! If they go out to dinner he always chooses fish.They are raising their baby as a vegetarian - who incidentally is 4m old and HUGE - her vegetarian breastmilk is clearly good stuff

Are you a veggie because of animal rights? If so, why not eat organic meat? After all, everything has been alive at some point, even the vegetables were alive before we ripped them from the soil. But animals raised in an organic environment at least have had a nice life. It's fine you being a veggie, but if dd is happy eating meat then I think it would be wrong to force your principles onto her, maybe she can make her own mind up when she is older. After all meat and fish contain lots of nutrients and minerals that are essential to her growing up. You can get supplements but it would be easier for you and more natural for her digestive system if she got those from meat.

I know a lot of veggies may disagree with what I am saying, but dh was brought up on a farm and contrary to popular belief, they actually treat the animals very well, it is in their interests to keep the animals fit and healthy. No killing of calves when they are born or anything like that. His mother now keeps hens and they are free to run around the fields as they please.

It's ultimately up to you. If you want to eat fish then go ahead and eat it, if we weren't meant to eat it then it would do us harm, as it is it does us a lot of good. All part of the natural food cycle and we are by nature carnivores. No-one would suggest that lions should be veggies - or would they?????

Rhubarb, just a few points...

"why not eat organic meat"

Organic meat is still brutally transported and slaughtered...

"I think it would be wrong to force your principles onto her"

Is this not what meat eaters do to their children?

"meat and fish contain lots of nutrients and minerals that are essential to her growing up"

A vegetarian diet contains all the necessary nutrients for a healthy diet. In addition veggie protein is far healthier than meat protein.

"more natural for her digestive system"

Eh?

Ionesmum - do not worry about having to cook more than 1 meal at dinnertime. None of us are vegetarian but my children are individuals with different tastes. I often end up making different meals for us all. There are 6 of us

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ionesmum - we're going through the same debate about ds's diet, and it's very difficult. Both dh & I are veggie (since age 20/21 - well over a decade) and we understand that you can get all you need from a veggie diet and we firmly believe it's the healthy option but this is what we've decided.

When ds is at home, he'll eat what the family eats - when we're out or he's at nursery/school he can eat what takes his fancy. The reasoning behind this is an attempt not to make food a big issue - it can become a battle ground even without adding difficulties. Also, it's to prevent any possibility of social stigma (such as problems at birthday parties - you see enough posts on here by mums looking for something more interesting than a cheese sandwhich to give to "the veggie kid" invited to their wee one's party) over something that has not been his choice/decision. (Though what is their decision - as a child the whole process of learning is having your parents and society's value and customs (however strange or silly) imposed on you.)

When he's old enough to notice, and starts asking questions we'll give him our reasons for not eating flesh, and of course we hope he'll understand and maybe even agree with them.

Regarding your choice about what you eat - you should do whatever makes you comfortable - the path each one of us takes is a series of personal choices, and we all pick the level of morality we live by. I have never criticized anyone for eating meat, but am forever shocked by the number of people willing to criticize me for not, or to try and fault the logic they feel must be behind this decision. This may be contentious but - these are my two standard retorts..

to "but you wear leather shoes/have insects in your lipstck".... "but then why don't you eat dog/horse then, it's an animal too?"

to "if god hadn't meant us to eat meat, we woudn't have had canine teeth"... "we also have remnants of additional stomachs and a tail, but at some point we've chosen not to use them"

There is no logic behind the point each of us picks between cannabalism & fruitarianism (eating only what falls off plants, already dead and designed to be consumed). It's just what makes you feel better about your life.

If you choose to eat fish or meat you'll only be a traitor if you are doing something you feel uncomfortable with. Either way, what you decide to eat hurts no person unless it hurts yourself.

Not really answering your question ionesmum but it is perfectly possible to get all the vitamins and minerals you need from a vegetarian diet. This is fact.

I agree with whoever said we are imposing our choices on our children whether we expect them to be vegetarian or carnivorous. And re birthday parties etc and veggie children, in my case my ds will ask if something is veggie before eating it so it shouldn't really present a problem for the parents holding the party. Cake and sandwiches are usually veggie, as is lots of the food that we all eat anyway.

I agree, no-one feels they have to defend their choice to eat meat so why do people keep expecting veggies to have to justify their choice?

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I really didn't intend to start a veggie debate here! I think that it's possible for dd to get all that she needs from a veggie diet (we eat dairy), I'm giving her fish for variety as atm she can have so few things. If she wants to eat meat when older then I won't stop her so long as I don't have to cook it. One of the g.p.s at our surgery is anti-veg and another is convinced it is the healthiest diet that you can have!

Personally I have a lot of time for people to farm organically and use the most humane slaughter methods possible. I think that it is wrong for me to eat meat but not other people, if they want to, although I think that people should be honest with themselves about what they eat and why. I wouldn't eat farmed fish because it is a very polluting industry that is badly affecting wildlife.

Still don't know what I am going to do. Apart from the moral issue I think that eating fish might upset my digestive system after so long of veggie stuff.

Oh, Mears, I do sympathise! I loathe cooking and cannot imagine managing for 6 different tastes!

Thanks for all the replies, it's given me a lot to think over!

Robinw, my ds eats dairy so is OK. Point taken about veggies preaching: I'm not veggie so I don't preach and do respect other peoples' choices. I suppose I do get defensive sometimes when people (not here, in real life) question my decision to bring ds up as a veggie and suggest that I'm doing the wrong thing without checking their facts (again, not talking about anyone on mumsnet!) Robinw, also want to say thank you very much for all the answers you posted to me on the thread about my divorce. Really appreciated.

Ionesmum - dp eat fish for a while ("gave in" to a craving) and digestive system had no problems - your gut juices don't care if the protein or aminoacid they're meant to atack is from veg or meat source - it's just a protein etc to them.

Sorry for the rant earlier.

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Robinw, read your post and thought blimey, what do I do about that? Good question. So have just trawled through a few sites and have found out that although fish oils contain EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) some vegetarian foods contain Alpha-Linolenic Acid (ALA) which can be converted to EPA in the body.

The best sources are oils made from linseed flaxseeds (linseeds), rapeseed (canola) & soya bean, (mmm, can't see my ds accepting a teaspoon of ground flaxseeds every morning) but is also in seeds, nuts, vegetable-based oils, dark green leafy vegetables, beans, legumes, lettuce, broccoli, spinach, and citrus fruits. Phew, ds eats nuts, broccoli, beans, lettuce and citrus fruits so I'm not worried.

I have a vegetarian nephew, 13 yrs old. never touched a bit of meat or fish. He seems to survive on egg and chips and frozen peas (still in frozen incarnation). its always caused dinner table problems, but, he'sbigger than all the other kids. I used to be veggie, but now I am sorry to say, I love a good bloody steak. What happened?

Sorry, I've just realised that putting those two words together...bloody and steak... would be an anathema to veggies. I was just trying to get across how surprised I am at my turn around. I sound like Rosemary in Rosemary's Baby or something, which by the way is one of my favourite films....

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Ionesmum - sorry - not much time so haven't read other posts, but I had this exact dilema when I started weaning my 1st.

I have been vegan for 12 years, due to the moral reasons you cite. First of all I was veggie, but the reasons for being one didn't make sence till I followed it to the natural conclusion of veganism (this took about a month). I was such a hard liner I suppose I really looked down on veggies! (eg if you eat eggs/drnk milk, the hens/cows are still killed when no longer 'productive, therefore you still contribute to the animal's death, just in a different way) That was my way of thinking anyway. I loved meat & wasn't squeemish, just didn't agree with it. Anyway, this is relevant later. Dh wasn't veggie /vegan, but was extremely supportive, and by his own choice, we rarely had anything non-vegan in the house. Anyway, I was a lazy vegan, in that I wasn't careful about what I ate (from a nutritional point of view) and as long as it didn't contain animal products (which I was very careful about) I was happy. So I ate loads of rubbish, chips, sweets etc, so wasn't very healthy I suppose.

When ds was weaned I was worried that I wouldn't be able to give him a balanced diet, given the restrictions of veganism, so after 12 years moved to vegetarianism. My rational was that if I was buying the product, I was a consumer, and so might as well consume also, do you follow?

So he was veggie. Then we moved abroad to a fairly carniverous country. When we arrived I couldn't find any veggie baby food (we were staying in a hotel at 1st so I couldn't prepare my own food for him). We survived, but it got me thinking for ds2 (I was 6 months pg). Anyway, to end this long blurb, in the hospital I decided to throw in the towel. I had a great week of being cooked everything I'd denied myself for over a decade. Now we all eat anything, but I always try to buy organic - milk, meat, fish etc, because the standards for animal care are much higher.

I never thought I'd ever not be vegan, but I'm not. Never say never! Anyway, it's so liberating to be hungry and actually get something to eat. How dh put up with the restrictions is beyond me - he's an angel! I'm sure my boys are much healthier than they would have been if I'd not taken this step.

Ionesmum, I really sympathise. Have been veggie since 10 years old and now have baby with dairy and egg allergy, who is also very small for his age so needs lots of high cal food to build him up. We also think that tomatoes make his skin itchy (he has eczema) so that rules out just about all the main ingreedients of my diet.

I seem to put all my enegy into cooking his meals and then end up living off junk mood myself, and I've just been thinking that it would be so much easier if I ate meat.

Personally, I don't think I could do it but I agree with Janeway - you should do whatever makes you comfortable, and whatever choice you make don't give yourself a hard time about it.

Anais, Organic Meat is NOT BRUTALLY TRANSPORTED AND SLAUGHTERED!!!, to sell organic meat wether it be pork.lamb. or beef, you HAVE to use a Quality Assured Transporter. In this day and age post F&M regulations are far tighter on animals transportation, we have our own lorry and we have regulations to adhere to as well. Slaughter is only inhumane if it is NOT done in a conventional slaughterhouse, I personally, physically throw up when we are in the vacinity of one, ans when we were taking our fat cattle to the slaughterhouse last year, my DH had to leave me in the street until he had been to the slaughterhouse.

What experience have you had of slaughterhouses or livestock hauliers?, what experience have you had of farming in any aspect including organic? Do you farm, have you ever farmed or have you been reading Compassion in World Farmings Literature that was being dished out in Marks and Spencers. The pictures you may see in books and television is only a SMALL percentage of the farming community.

Thank you for the further replies. Monkey, I know whatyou mean about being hungry - I'd love to be able to sit in the car eating fish and chips,instead of just chips, which isn't the same at all!

CEr, I do so sympathise, it must be so hard for you. Our dd isn't allergic to anything as far as I know, but she has a sensitive tummy so we have to introduce things slowly and certain things are off-limits for now. I spend so long trying to think of things that she'll like and ages cooking, then send dh out for a takeaway or bung some oven-chips on for us!

My ds is a funny one! He likes the "nursery" meat food - like sausages, burgers, spag. bol. etc - but realy will not eat the traditional sunday roast. I therefore think that it's little to do with the taste and more to do with the texture and appearance. We got away with it for a while ( when he was a toddler ) by just calling it "meat" - but he has cottoned on!
I fully respect this and cannot force food onto him that he won't enjoy.
Please could you give me advice as to exciting veggie meals that I CAN give him. It's made harder that he is not too keen on anything "new"

Thanks

I've just had a scrummy spag bol made with red lentils. Also good are cauliflower cheese and pasta with tomato sauces and cheese, our little dd (only 5 mo) wouldn't eat any veg but now eats anything so long as it has tomato and/or cheese. Pizza is nice, too, esp if you use unusual toppings. And noodle stir-fry might be okay.

Tigger2. I have been involved in animal rights for 13 years now. I have been on demos and seen things first hand. Animals destined for the dinner table are treated appalingly right the way though the system.