Why is my white bread still doughy and a bit tough?

[hudyerwheesht]

Been getting into baking bread but despite a LOT of reading up on it and following recipes to the letter(some no kneading, some double proving,etc) I still end up with weird -textured bread. As my DH put it "the texture reminds me of a crumpet".
This was in relation to my latest attempt with which I was quite proud of the "crumb" I managed to pull off, but combined with the odd texture I concede it is reminiscent of a crumpet.
How do I get the gloriously fluffy soft stuff? What am I doing wrong?

If it has a crumpet texture this is usually lack of gluten.
Gluten is produced by kneading the dough and allowing it to prove for the correct length of time then kneading again. This process is what gives the dough elasticity thus resulting in a fluffy texture.

Paul Hollywoods recipes for me are the best and easiest to follow.

Good luck OP

if you want really soft then try using milk instead of water

Try the slap and fold method; and using 500g bread flour, 350g water, 7g yeast and 7g salt. Wetter than your usual mix but makes the best light bread ever. You have to use the slap and fold method though to get the gluten going.

When you knead bread dough (NB this is not relevant for gluten free dough), you need to stretch it and pull it. As you do this you will feel and see the elasticity of the dough increasing. It should be hard work. By the time you've finished kneading the dough it should not stick to the dough board at all, but be in a smooth round ball. Personally I like my dough to rise VERY slowly, so after kneading I usually put mine in a steel bowl covered with cling film in the fridge overnight. Then I knock it back, knead a little and allow to rise in a warm place for another 45-60 mins before baking. To check that it is cooked, turn the loaf and knock on it with your knuckles. It should sound hard. Let us know how you get on. Bread making is addictive! I still do it for the family every day even though I have given up eating it myself.

Good wet dough makes lovely bread, messy but worth it. Slap and fold (love that way of putting it) is great for a stickier dough as you don't need to get all your hands in it! Also autolysing is good for a nice texture, put all ingredients apart from the salt in and mix together well, then leave it for 20-30 minutes before adding the salt, gives the yeast time to work before the salt affects it. Really work the dough as well, do you know how to check the gluten window? It's a good indicator of whether the bread has been kneaded enough.

Thanks for the replies! Much appreciated.

Yes, the old slap and fold, discovered this and the window test via James Morton's book which is primarily aimed at the fairly novice baker, at least in the earlier section.
The crumpet one I described earlier was using his basic white recipe which is a no knead recipe, though I still did a little bit of a knead before I shaped it but found it hard to get the tight, smooth ball in the photos in his book as it kept sticking to my hands and I know I'm not supposed to use extra flour.
I am struggling with kneading wetter mixtures, it seems almost impossible as it sticks to bloody everything. Even the slap and fold leaves me with most of it on the work surface.
So, wise bread-baking Mumsnetters, from what you are saying then, if I persevere long enough will transform from sticky mess to elastic dough?

If the mixture is wet or sticky and you don't want to use extra flour then try a bit of olive or vegetable oil. It will stop it sticking but not mess with the flour ratio.

Let us know how you get on OP.

Have you got a dough scraper? They are the answer to your dough sticking everywhere.

You have to keep slapping and folding, it seems sticky at the start but after 15 mins it should have changed texture and be like a baby's tummy - all doughy and smooth. Remember when you slap and fold, to pick it up from the side each time, thus turning it 90 degrees each slap.

When the dough has collected off the surface and your hands, it's ready to let sit for an hour.

Kneed for a minimum of 5 minutes. Make sure your oven temp is correct and preheated. Over proving after shaping or putting into tin will result in holey bread. Underproving very dense bread. Undercooking will result in correct texture in the top half but very dense chewy soggy bottom. Fan assisted ovens aren't the best for bread I always get best results in baking oven (fan off).

Thank you lovely people!

Lostinwales, I ordered one from amazon earlier.

Ok, so, perseverance seems to be the key and baby's bum smoothness of dough should be within my grasp(literally, I hope)

Well I had been about to give up but you have inspired me to attempt another one tomorrow. I will update....

You need to keep the faith and carry on kneading for a minimum of 10 minutes. I am a new bake your own bread evangelist, worked out how to make rolls all next to each other in rows to tear off last week, I was so proud .

Ooh, lostinwales, well done-you need to come back and tell me how, all the recipes suggest rolling individual ones and spacing them apart which, knowing my bread-making talent will mean small hard rock-like things.

I'm going to make some hot cross buns tomorrow so I'll take some pictures to show you, basically I weigh the dough after it's first prove and decide whether to split it into 8 or 10 (I like mine around 90g for bread rolls, seems to be a good size) then I fold them into the middle to give them the idea of the shape I want and tension them into rounds, put them on a baking tray to prove in two rows with about 5mm between each one and as they swell up during the second prove they touch. Bake them in the oven like that and when cooled they tear in a really satisfying manner to give soft bread rolls without too much hard crust. I'm very lucky that a friend of mine runs courses in different types of bread making so I've had some great 'hands on' teaching.

I have the James morton book too, but having problems with shaping, the loaves/buns etc always seem to just spread out, do I just need to shape more (can you over shape?)

Ah, that sounds good, lostinwales, I was wondering if it was something like just baking after they spread together whilst proving...thanks for the exact measurements, I will give that a go sometime.

Well my latest attempt is currently (first)proving. It took fecking ages to come together and stop sticking to my fingers. I was losing the will to live. Also, I managed to get a dough scraper and ended up sort of doing the slap and fold with that which worked better.

I also have trouble shaping. Again, it keeps sticking to my fingers. I keep trying to use just my fingertips or the edge of my hands which seems to help.

As a demonstration of how badly my maths homework has gone today here is a 'how to' of doing nice bread rolls!

First picture is of the nice dough after it's first prove, full of lots of lovely air. I split it into 6 equal pieces, then made each one a square, folded the corners in like doing origami, then folded the new corners in and once again, then shaped it by kind of stretching the surface under and squashed against my hand (my friend calls it making a mushroom stalk). Dusted them with a bit of flour and put them almost but not quite touching. The last picture is after about 30 mins of second prove.

I baked them in a hot oven then until they went nice and brown and sounded really hollow when I tapped them underneath (20-30 mins?). They look lovely and as you can see in the last pic DS2 approves!

I too made Hot Cross Buns yesterday, but mine are not as beautiful. Mine have lots of citrus peel etc in and I use half wholemeal and then put crosses on. The team say they taste pretty good but I'm not posting any pics!

I haven't got round to the hot cross buns yes, this was a displacement activity instead of staring at impossible homework that was making me panic! I made hot cross buns at the weekend with apple and chocolate chips in, they were lush but felt a bit wrong! Citrus peels sounds lovely, I'm going to have to do some tomorrow now, I'm a bit addicted to the whole shaping and tensioning of the rolls now . I wish I could just pootle around making stuff to eat and having someone clean the kitchen for me.

I'm afraid I just slap the dough down in a lump and it shapes/tensions itself!

Wow, they look amazing, I am so trying those next!

My loaf turned out better - much fluffier. Only slight disappointment was I think I undercooked it just a tad. I did the tap test underneath but in truth it wasn't as hollow sounding as it could have been. Tbh I was just impatient to see if all my kneading had paid off.

I know what you mean about displacement activity, none of my psychology revision was done today(but I got a fluffy loaf, yay!).

Anyone know the answer to breakingdad's q about dough that spreads out of shape because mine always seem to spill over the loaf tin, muffin-top style, annoyingly...?

under proved

you could also try a half sponge method.
make a sponge:
mix 1cup flour with 1cup water add half a teaspoon dried yeast (I use the stuff in the yellow tin, tastes better imo)
leave for at least 8 hours
then add another cup of water, 500g flour, half a teaspoon salt, 1 tablespoon oil.
knead as described above.
shape. prove. bake.

if you want a soft, pale crust, put in the cold oven and bake at 170 for 50 min to an hour, if loaf sounds hollow it's ready.

Hmm. If it's doing a muffin top I'd say it is under kneaded AND under proved. But conversely, if you leave it to rise for too long it can also go runny and you have to reknead/prove. Keep trying - it's worth it!