Bread making issues

[LeBFG]

Calling all who make their own bread by hand. I've been finally getting good loaves using 500g flour plus a bit of butter and sugar - 20 mins rise, knock back, 1hr rise - oven 220 for . Nice colour, looks great. THe main problem is it is quite crumbly when sliced. What can I do to improve this? Am I leaving it too long to prove? Is there too much yeast? I follow the yeast packet recipe so...I'm stumped really.

i don't like butter in my bread (different story when it comes to eating it, mind)

try using a tblspn of veg oil and perhaps kneading a little longer in the knocking back stage?

yes oil is smoother than butter in bread

OK, will do this in the next loaf. I keep thinking it might be rising too much (humph, before my problem was it wouldn't rise enough!) so perhaps I'm holding back a bit at the knocking back stage.

I do my proving times the other way round - so the first rise is the longer one. Don't know if that would.cause crumbliness though.

Oh, you do that starfish? I know the Delia recipes do and hour plus an hour. I'm still wondering if I add too much yeast. It's fast action dried stuff that somes in sachets. One sachet for 500g flour for machine made bread. Two sachets for same quantity of hand made bread, so I use 2. Perhaps my needing skills are just too good

I mean 'kneading'

Are you using good quality extra stong bread flour with a high gluten content? Do you knead it until it is very stretchy? And is your dough a soft consistency rather than quite stiff? Usually 'crumbly' means inadequate gluten in the flour or inadequate kneading.

Ahh, is that so? Worth knowing. I knead until I get tired! The dough is always nice and springy, never stiff. I've been changing the flour - some of the organic wholemeal has been the best wrt crumbling. So I think you have a point. I don't know how to tell the gluten content of the flour I buy. Is it normally marked somewhere?

I make my bread with no kneading at all :) It makes quite rustic type bread, but it is awesome. I use the 5 minute-no-knead bread method.

Plain flour has little gluten, strong has more and superstrong has even more.

I find if I put more water in it's less crumbly. My standard white loaf is 500g strong flour with 320ml water. If I make a cottage loaf it's 300ml water or less, which makes a stiffer dough (so the cottage loaf stands up) and a crumbly texture.

I also agree with Cogito about kneading and gluten. The kneading gets the gluten working, and it's the gluten that forms long strands and stops it being crumbly.

Have you got an easy to follow link for the recipe you use KK?

My last loaf has turned out pretty OK - I finished the old flour I was using and mixed with a new one. Perhaps the newer one is higher in gluten? I'll carry on trying different varieties. Thanks for the tips

The no-knead bread.

I do the Dan Lepard method which involves minimal kneading: www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/nov/24/foodanddrink.baking8

I use butter and sometimes oil - no discernable difference.

Thanks for the link. Will try it out!

Gluten content is indicated by the words 'strong' or 'extra strong' as said earlier. It's also more expensive. In fact, bread flour is one of those products where you get what you pay for. The bag costing the extra 50p is actually worth the money.

So, I've tried a loaf with half the yeast, the newer flour and a good bit of kneading. I had a great first rise - took longer than with two sachets of yeast, but doubled in an hour. Kneaded for a minute or two and into pan for second rise. This was the disappointment - took several hours to more-or-less double. It has a nice spongey texture but the slices are rectangular rather than square cos it hasn't risen enough probably - lack of yeast this time?

I wouldn't stick to the TIMES for raising/proving, but go on size as this is a better guide.

Ah, OK. So what am I looking for size-wise?

Second rise doesn't need to be to full size. Once in a hot oven the rise will complete very fast.

A handful of cooked white rice added to the flour, or using water in which you have cooked potatoes helps with crumbliness. Not sure why

LeBFG, it doesn't really matter if your first rise goes beserk. Last night mine trebled in size (sorry, my bread dough did). I then knocked it back, kneaded and popped in the loaf pan and waited until it was almost double the size before puting in the oven. It then rose in the oven from just under 4 inches to about 5.5 inches high.

I see. Thanks for the precisions. I think everything went well then except the dough then didn't rise in the oven - too hot I should think. Next time it'll be perfect

I don't think that the oven can ever really be too hot. In fact, the hotter it is to start with, the more "bounce" you will get at the bottom of the loaf. It may be that you were a little rough when picking up the loaf pan to put it in t eoven. If you inadvertently "knock" it, it can deflate the dough in just the same way you do when knocking it back after its first rise.

Try some healthy, low carb, high fibre organic coconut bread. It is a good source of protein! Make sure you use the flour my Tiana fair trade organics. It's the best one out there.

Here's the recipe.

www.mumsnet.com/Recipes/i/5770-Coconut-Bread-Gluten-Free-High-Fibre-Low-Carbs