OK, fuck this.

[TheGoldenApplesOfTheSun]

It's not the "casual" British antisemitism, though that does wear me out over time. Those going "what, anti-semitic overtones on Mumsnet? Never!" I kindly refer you to every thread about circumcision on this cunting thing. "No," you protest, "I'm just against religion, in general! And child abuse! Aren't you against child abuse, you monster?" . I tried educating about the blood libel and the way this sort of thing is used, take a look at my past posts, but I'm just tired now. I generally try to steer clear and figured, that's ok, right? I'm tired of being the one Jew in a debate about whether Jews are this or that, the voice piping up. I'll take a rest and I can go on other sections of the site like feminism chat. I love feminism and talking about it!

It's the trans threads. I just can't fucking stand them. Yes, trans women exist and are people, no they are not (insert every horrible trope possible here). Ffs, it's like Mumsnet wants to defend the wrongheaded shit of the eighties against all comers. We've BEEN through this, come out the other side stronger and kinder and realising that helping people who aren't just like us doesn't mean our own cause is failing. It's called intersectional feminism but apparently you didn't get the fucking memo.

Well count me out. I used to come on here for fun and informative chats but it's just turned into everything about the internet I hate - people shouting at me and each other and never trying to listen. Fuck you Mumsnet admins for facilitating this. You act like you're being neutral but is it neutral when friend groups freeze out the victims of abuse because "we can't know whose fault it was"? If you "don't pick a side" then you HAVE picked a side. It's the abusers side. And you know it.

I'm done here.

Being against chopping off part of a baby's penis for non medical reasons is not anti Semitic. It's called logic.

Buh bye

I understand male circumcision is an old Jewish practice, dates back to pre Biblical days of course. I don't approve of it, same as I don't approve of crucifying.

Other biblical practices I don't approve of include child sacrifice.

Other practices also like stoning, killing your brother/son/wife/anyone..

Why do people make a big hooha about leaving. Just dont log on again we really dont need to know that you're going.

Being against chopping off part of a baby's penis for non medical reasons is not anti Semitic.

This. With bells on. When it comes to cutting bits off babies, I simply won't accept any non-medical reasoning.

I avoid all the trans angst. However flouncing because people rightly don't condone chopping bits off innocent children unnecessarily and are happy to say so, (thank god we have some free speech) means you're more than likely not somebody I'd wish to mix with on the Internet or in real life. Face it, the majority of people are against child abuse, however you dress it up. Whining because strangers care about these poor children more than the abusers and apologists do won't get you any sympathy on here, thank goodness.

I always thought that there were sound medical reasons in Middle East for male circumcision due to the heat and possible irritation from sand way back when.
To equate male circumcision with FGM is utterly wrong due to the vital tissue removed in FGM.

And as for the charge of 'casual anti semitism', I'm more appalled at the 'casual' abuse of children that is accepted. Believe what you want, i couldn't care less, but if it involves chopping bits off then chop a bit off yourself.

Meh, I can't be arsed to A/S your nn but based on reading this thread I can't say I'll miss your contributions. Ta-ta.

Next the OP will be crying that anyone that supports Palestine is anti Semitic too.

Next the OP will be crying that anyone that supports Palestine is anti Semitic too.

of course not everyone that supports palestine is antisemitic, but if the only reason you brought that up fruitcider is because OP is a jew, then you are an antisemitic wanker, as she hasnt mentioned anything of the sort

No such place as Palestine.

Yes, trans women exist and are people

They are, and I treat them like people - you know, respond in kind to their behaviour?

So when a firefighter who joined up, trained and served for 10 years as a man transitions, and then less than a year after that transition, accepts a nomination for a national award only available to women (thereby excluding a female colleague who has served all their career as a women), and courts publicity in relation to that nomination, I question their motives for transitioning.

nn, I feel sad for the female firefighters who joined up, trained, served (as women, obvs) and then were excluded from an award intended for them.

What is the general view on getting baby's ears pierced- is that not mutilation?

Babies with intact functioning penises don't need bits of their penises removing without their knowledge or consent.

Men with intact functioning penises aren't women.

Yup..my views on this too. Along with I don't really see how being against circumcision for anything other than medical reasons is anti-Semitic

Golden,

I am a fellow Jew (albeit secular). I do wonder about the motivation of people on circumcision threads. I can see why some, in principle, disagree. However the vitriol and the comparison to FGM is just wrong. I suspect some are very absolutist and judgmental. Others, on the other hand, may be anti-Semitic at heart, though they would never admit to eat (some, even to themselves).

The trans thing, on the other hand, I kind of get. It is sad as there was a time when there were very few trans people and they clearly felt born in the wrong body. However, there seems an epidemic recently and, a large bearded man claiming to be the first ever woman to achieve X does seem ridiculous. Personally, if I felt French and wanted to be accepted by a Frenchman, I would listen carefully to what Frenchmen did and certainly would not try to represent them. Tough one, though, as some of the scorn poured on the trans community must really hurt those just quietly getting on with things.

Yes, trans women exist and are people

And I haven't seen a single post on MN that suggests transwomen should not be permitted to live, love and generally go through life as they wish. except where their freedom to do as they wish takes from my freedoms and those of my DDs

I have however, as I have dipped my toe into the world of gender criticism, seen appalling levels of hate and threats of violence directed at girls and women. Anyone in any doubt about this should check out this

It baffles me that women are not seeing this for what it is.

"except where their freedom to do as they wish takes from my freedoms and those of my DD"

The snag of course being that the Equalities Act doesn't rank protected characteristics. So the 'freedoms' of one do not trump those of the other. Your DDs are important, but not more important than anyone else's DC and their freedoms.

Someone can raise concerns about circumcision without being anti Semitic, just like someone can raise concerns about trans rights potentially overriding women's rights without being transphobic. I worry that people who jump to accuse those who express these concerns of being bigoted are sometimes attempting to shut down important debates and discussions.

Some posters may well overstep the line and become offensive on circumcision threads and trans threads. They are enormously emotive and sensitive subjects. People will get heated and speak insensitively and I have no doubt that a small minority will take the opportunity to express truly awful opinions. However, there is a huge amount of reasoned and informed discussion, certainly on the trans threads, and I think you are making a terrible mistake to dismiss it all as transphobia and lump it in with homophobia and the struggle for gay rights. It is not at all the same issue. There is a lot to learn and a lot to think about on the trans threads. You are extremely foolish to write it all off.

Viking you're right it's a pretty huge bloody "snag" and sooner or later someone is going to have to make a decision as to whose rights do come first and there will have to be rules.

As a survivor of abuse I have no right to say I don't want to be counselled by an individual with a penis who "feels like a woman". Apart from the fact that makes no fucking sense - I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman despite having been one for almost four decades it bloody stinks

I refuse to be subjected to distress in order to validate someone else's feelings.

I suspect Judaism/Christianity/Islam and homosexuality will be sorted out before definitions of gender and how/when it is acquired.

If these question can ever be sorted.

I suspect Judaism/Christianity/Islam and homosexuality will be sorted out before definitions of gender and how/when it is acquired.

Gender no longer seems to be the issue. That was pretty much sorted, but because not everyone was happy with the conclusions, the definition of biological sex is now up for debate.

As a genetics graduate, that undermines the fundamentals of my learning. I'm struggling.