Puzzling over the logic(?) over Downton housing

[MsAmerica]

This is very specific, so I didn't want it to get lost in the long general thread.

Two things baffled me:

1.The seeming acceptance of the necessity of selling Downton House, the London mansion. Why couldn't they simply rent it out for a few years - apparently a time-honored solution since at least the 18th century, as we see in Austen?

2.Lord/Lady Grantham moving to the dower house. Why? I could understand it if Lady Mary were solidly married and Lord Grantham were were doddering, but that wasn't the case. Surely no one in their right minds would think that Lady Mary would be happier left alone with no adult except servants?

These both entirely baffle me. Sensible, to you? To me, illogical and bad plotting.

1 is accurate historically. Most of the big London houses were sold and demolished then. I think it was partly to do with much better trains and roads, so the season was no longer so much of a thing, reducing the need for a permanent large London base.

Austen was a bit earlier when more aristos had the money and the will to maintain a massive country house. It just became unsustainable because of all the servants needed.

@MsAmerica I just posted on the thread about the film

I totally see the logic of selling the house. A lot of people wouldn't have been able to rent those big houses either. The only people who would've rented it would have been the super rich who were being hammered by taxes on property and such like.

So that makes sense

But I also wondered why Lord and Lady Grantham wanted to move. I thought perhaps I've missed something in the way of explanation. It would also leave Mary as the only adult in the house which I thought she would probably not like.

I suppose if Lord and Lady Grantham just want to live in the house by themselves without Mary and without grandchildren, that does make sense. But it wasn't explicitly stated. And it seems that Lord Grantham in particular was very attached to his lifestyle so I can't see what the reason is for them to move.

Actually, I just thought

Maybe Lord Grantham feels it would be inappropriate to live at Downton Abbey when he's no longer managing the estate.

and in terms of Mary being a divorced woman, it shows faith that they're prepared to hand over the whole thing to her.

I think Lord G realised he needed to move out or he wouldn’t be able to stop himself meddling

Wasn’t the London house called Grantham House? Or did I get that confuddled?

I thought that the selling if it was a but clunky but agree it was accurate to the time.

I took moving to the Dower House to be because he was so attached to it and hated seeing it packed up, and because they wanted to put 2 fingers up to Mary being divorced and force people to interact with her directly.

I took it as they needed to sell the London house to release money to bring the estate up to scratch and secure a future for George.
I agree about moving to the Dower House tho.. Mary must be rattling around in there!
But it did bring Downton Abbey nicely to an end.
I watched it twice in the first week and loved it.

One puzzle (since day one) has been that we only see tiny bits of what is supposed to be a massive house..

Went to see the film with DD (20) and we both enjoyed it immensely - though we both think this IS NOT THE END!!

(She was by far the youngest in the cinema audience by some decades too. I fitted into the demographic perfectly, however.)

I agree

It seems mad to sell the only house in London, but keep multiple large homes in the same village empty or with only one or two people living in them but needing a full compliment of staff each, when they'd been happy sharing all this time. It's not like they'd be on top of each other, Mary could still have had her own wing!

As well as the Abbey and the Dower House with only 1 and 2 adults respectively living there full time, they seem to have Crawley House standing completely empty since Isobel got married, plus the random manor near Durham they considered moving to in S3 on (one of the several 😁) occasions they nearly lost all their money (which tbf I think they did rent out). Surely it would make more sense to sell one or more of them off!

They could have achieved the same 'Mary is the boss now,' storyline by Robert and Cora deciding to take a long trip to America with her brother or something, and thus driving off into the sunset while she's left alone in the house with the ghosts....

I always wonder where the basement staff area (which has windows) is?

Maybe it’s about entertaining and meals. Instead of a buffet breakfast with people appearing as and when it suits them, and staff waiting on standby, they serve breakfast for just Lord and Lady Grantham, or Mary up at the big house.

Ditto entertaining. Less expectation of continuous formal readiness.

My DGM was from a farming family but not the eldest child. When her father died her eldest brother took the farm on, and DGM and DGGM? Had to move into a farm cottage. Similar storyline on a bigger scale!

Sorry, I meant to say Dower House. Some good ideas here. They must assume we know the characters really well. Which I guess we do!

@ladydiggins I visited Highclere Castle. Absolute joy. Do you mean that the whole house isn't shown in the TV show or the film specifically?

The house was actually a bit smaller than I was expecting. Particularly, I think it's the drawing room (with the red furniture) that is definitely filmed in some kind of clever wide angle way.

I think it remained residential for filming, but I don't know for sure. I should remember that.

@Kendodd Downstairs scenes are not filmed at Highclere Castle. I think they were filmed at the studio in Ealing.

I had a really good book about the show. Stupidly, I didn't keep it. I downsized - I'll rent from a small flat to a smaller flat which would horrify Lord Grantham - and a whole bunch of stuff is at my mum's.

I had books about Downton, Sherlock, and Mr. Selfridge. And now I just cannot understand why I gave them away. My moving situation was pretty fraught though.

I'm still hoping that I've misremembered and I'll find them in a box at mum's!

It occurs to me a lot of the downstairs actors might hardly have met the upstairs ones

I haven't been to Highclere yet so I don't know if this is the case here but I've been to some NT grand houses and some of the basements are built with windows high up that are at ground level so there's some light coming in. To get to the ground floor you go up some steps to make the GF slightly raised. Or it could be that the house is on a slight slope so the front is flat but the back is slightly raised allowing for basement windows.

And of course selling Grantham house would bring in a large sum quickly, unlike renting it out.

The Dower house move mare sense to me. Look how often Maggie Smith was up at the main house. It's not like Lord and Lady Grantham would be too far to pop in regularly for lunch or dinner.

How does it make any sense from a financial perspective though?

No matter how often they'd pop to the main house for dinner they'd still have to have their own cook, housemaids, gardener, at least 1 butler/footman, etc. So a whole second set of staff to pay.

If you're trying to save money it's nonsensical to sell one house but then add on a completely unnecessary significant extra recurring expenses by hiring at least 5 extra people you wouldn't have needed if they'd stayed living in the same house.

Does it have to? They have freed up a lot of money from selling Grantham house. They don't have to pay anything for Dowager house other than the staff. It's possible they will take someone from DA but I don't think staffing costs were enormous and they could make do with fewer.

When the Dowager Countess lived there, I think the only live in staff she had were Spratt and Denker. I can't see Robert managing without more though.

I agree, they have made money from the sale of the London house and also, I wonder if it was done as a tribute to Dame Maggie Smith? 🥰

Yes, when the older ones retire they move to a smaller house.

Yes it could be. Plus the Dower house was important to them.

well yeah, if a whole plotline centres around selling one house because you need the money then it's a bit ridiculous to split up your (already small) household into a further property, thus voiding most of the benefit of the sale of the first one.

they can't take a cook or butler or similar from Downton because there isn't a spare one to take! Same with housemaids, gardeners etc - the house and gardens don't magically get smaller because half the inhabitants moved out, they'd still need the same amount of staff to maintain them. The only ones that could go were bates and anna, other than them they'd still need the full complement of staff the Dowager had when she was living there.

They don't have to pay anything for Dowager house other than the staff.
Um...how about food, electricity, gas/coal and water bills, rates (i.e. pre council tax), upkeep and maintenance etc.?

Not having a mortgage doesn't mean everything else came free in 1930 any more than it does now...

I think you may be overthinking it!

I think you’re right that both points feel a bit shaky when measured against historical practice. Renting out London houses was absolutely common among the aristocracy — many families would let their townhouses when not in use, especially if money was tight. It would’ve been a logical plot option, but I suspect Fellowes wanted the drama of a “final farewell” rather than a pragmatic solution.
As for the dower house: traditionally, it was meant for the dowager countess after the heir married, but you’re spot on that it makes little sense for Robert and Cora to move there prematurely. Dramatically, it clears space for Mary to be “in charge” of the estate, but narratively it does feel forced — especially since Mary wasn’t in a secure marriage at the time.
So I’d say both decisions are less about strict social logic and more about storytelling needs: giving Mary independence and giving the show a sense of “moving on,” even if it bends period accuracy.

I also thought it was a bit odd leaving Mary all on her own in that big house at the end. How sad and lonely for her... Also, the Bates were concerned about being parted, but isn't the Dower House just a short walk away across the grounds? Could they not have just walked the ten minutes every day?

I'm just not sure that the needed the money immediately, and there wouldn't have been anything wrong with trying to rent the London house for a couple of years to see if it worked out.

I, alas, didn't love it, and didn't think it brought it nicely to an end. But I knew I'd have to see it.