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Feminism: chat

Tired of the pro-choice lie

642 replies

Honesting · 14/09/2025 17:26

I keep seeing people bring this up again, especially after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, that he once said if his 10-year-old daughter became pregnant through rape he’d insist she carry the baby. People call it misogynistic and vile. To be clear, that’s not my view and I’m not here to argue the pro-life case.

I actually have mixed feelings about abortion. I'm okay with the MAP and not okay with abortion up to the point of delivery. Where to draw the line is something I haven't decided yet.

What I do want to say is that it’s dishonest to pretend CK's position comes from hatred of women. The pro-life stance is very consistent and, internally, very coherent. If you genuinely believe an unborn child is a human being with rights, then ending its life is always wrong, no matter how it was conceived. We’d never allow a raped woman to kill her newborn, even if it was the product of rape. So if you see the foetus as having equal rights, then by that same logic, it shouldn’t matter whether conception was through rape.

I know the other side, and I understand it. I’m not dismissing the complexities. But the idea that the pro life argument is born of misogyny is simply false. It comes from a clear and reasonable moral framework: once human life begins, it carries human rights.

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CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:34

BlueJuniper94 · 30/09/2025 10:45

I suppose the same reason people who feel abortion is morally wrong don't call it murder when they're trying to have a civilised discussion about it. It's about courtesy and being able to disagree in a way which allows us to continue to live alongside one another. It's of critical importance because we are rapidly moving towards a society where people would like to see those who disagree with violently attacked for their views.

Violence is ofc never the answer. I do think in some cases we should not refrain from saying someone's misogynistic (Neil Gaiman & Andrew Tate would be obviously cases).

The issue is that abortion I much more complex. Some are pro life bc of misogyny, but others I am certain hold that conviction because of beliefs about life & would still hold it if tomorrow men could magically get pregnant. It's not fair to call them all misogynistic : I say that as a pro choice person up to 12 weeks.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:38

BlueJuniper94 · 30/09/2025 14:44

If the destination is the same, can you provide any coherent argument why the journey matters?

You don't believe abortion is a threat, because it's happening slowly, like frogs being boiled alive. But look at the demographic changes, no society which mainstreams abortion maintains a replacement level fertility rate. That puts a growing burden on young people and the children of tomorrow that makes school shootings look like the good old days

So, BlueJuniper, do you believe women should not be allowed any abortion rights because they must be made to bear children even if they don't want to...?

Would you also ban contraception?

People are having far fewer kids than they want, it's not because of abortion here.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:39

BlueJuniper94 · 30/09/2025 10:45

I suppose the same reason people who feel abortion is morally wrong don't call it murder when they're trying to have a civilised discussion about it. It's about courtesy and being able to disagree in a way which allows us to continue to live alongside one another. It's of critical importance because we are rapidly moving towards a society where people would like to see those who disagree with violently attacked for their views.

Yes, on left & right. On the right Kirk & Trump to name only two. On the left, Hortman & the Pelosis..And both sides are getting worse in terms of fringe online radicalisation

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:40

earlyr1ser · 30/09/2025 11:09

Do you see an outpouring of support for gun ownership on here?

We can own a gun here & that's good. We just have sensible checks, no concealed carry etc unlike the US & long may it stay that way.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:43

BlueJuniper94 · 30/09/2025 14:16

"They ignore the women who die when abortion is restricted, and it is important that we are able to point out that when you don't mind women dying in service of your views then you are misogynistic."

This is really an interesting argument. Because no societies actually survive the legalisation of abortion in the long term. The demographic changes brought about by the use of technology cause the misery of an inverse and ageing population, and ultimately - its final demise. But you likely approve of this

How can you be so certain? What societies have died out due to abortion? None so far.

Surely contraception is a much bigger factor.

Why do you want women to have children they don't want? Why not improve the environment so they want them (as many do but feel not possible due to environment)

Plus birth rate is falling even in places where both contraception & abortion are scarce. It's a global phenomenon.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:45

BlueJuniper94 · 30/09/2025 16:15

Human nature is human nature. Give us all a piece and let us have at it then 😂

What a lovely comment. Do you care to explain it further, by any chance?

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:53

BlueJuniper, I think you are a Catholic? I can understand how this plays in to your stance...is there NO circumstance you would permit abortion? Not even rape?

I assume you would permit it if the mother would die if she gave birth.

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 03:00

gingerelephant · 30/09/2025 22:22

The discussion is about abortion, the points you make relate to different issues and subjects.
As I said I respect your views and expect mine to be respected. There is clearly no point continuing a discussion with someone who doesn’t understand that other views are valid and are based on different thoughts and values.

No, the points I make are examples of views that don't deserve to be respected. You can't advocate for harm to women and expect other people to respect that.

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 03:11

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:34

Violence is ofc never the answer. I do think in some cases we should not refrain from saying someone's misogynistic (Neil Gaiman & Andrew Tate would be obviously cases).

The issue is that abortion I much more complex. Some are pro life bc of misogyny, but others I am certain hold that conviction because of beliefs about life & would still hold it if tomorrow men could magically get pregnant. It's not fair to call them all misogynistic : I say that as a pro choice person up to 12 weeks.

This has been argued in great detail throughout the thread, but yes an anti-abortion stance is a misogynistic one and the term 'prolife' is misleading because when you ban or restrict abortion then maternal mortality rates rise. If you advocate for a policy that kills and harms women, that's misogyny. To say you make exceptions for rape victims and danger to mother's life is disingenuous - how does a person prove rape especially within twelve weeks of it occurring, especially given that the traumatic nature of the crime means many victims struggle to report it. And danger to mother's life is a judgement call - when you make it more difficult for doctors to perform abortion in case someone later disagrees that the mother's life was in danger and the doctor could be prosecuted then you find doctors delay lifesaving action out of caution and women die. So in practice, your exemptions are meaningless however well-intentioned you believe they are.

A 'pro-life' stance does not preserve life; it harms women, it kills them in greater numbers and it takes away their rights, dignity and freedoms. You can imagine anti-abortionists would keep their stance if men got pregnant but the reality is that an anti-abortion movement would never have taken hold in the first place if it was men's lives and freedoms at stake - patriarchal institutions like the church would never have adopted a moral stance against an issue that harmed men. Restricting women's rights over their own bodies and framing it as a religious or moral stance plays directly into patriarchal interests; it does not happen to men.

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:22

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 03:11

This has been argued in great detail throughout the thread, but yes an anti-abortion stance is a misogynistic one and the term 'prolife' is misleading because when you ban or restrict abortion then maternal mortality rates rise. If you advocate for a policy that kills and harms women, that's misogyny. To say you make exceptions for rape victims and danger to mother's life is disingenuous - how does a person prove rape especially within twelve weeks of it occurring, especially given that the traumatic nature of the crime means many victims struggle to report it. And danger to mother's life is a judgement call - when you make it more difficult for doctors to perform abortion in case someone later disagrees that the mother's life was in danger and the doctor could be prosecuted then you find doctors delay lifesaving action out of caution and women die. So in practice, your exemptions are meaningless however well-intentioned you believe they are.

A 'pro-life' stance does not preserve life; it harms women, it kills them in greater numbers and it takes away their rights, dignity and freedoms. You can imagine anti-abortionists would keep their stance if men got pregnant but the reality is that an anti-abortion movement would never have taken hold in the first place if it was men's lives and freedoms at stake - patriarchal institutions like the church would never have adopted a moral stance against an issue that harmed men. Restricting women's rights over their own bodies and framing it as a religious or moral stance plays directly into patriarchal interests; it does not happen to men.

You clearly have no idea what the church teaches men then. They're just as restricted, no sex outside marraige, and even then only procreative acts. That infringes on their autonomy too. You have a warped view of what Christianity teaches. Many would argue these strictures are just as misandrist as they are misogynistic.

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:34

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:43

How can you be so certain? What societies have died out due to abortion? None so far.

Surely contraception is a much bigger factor.

Why do you want women to have children they don't want? Why not improve the environment so they want them (as many do but feel not possible due to environment)

Plus birth rate is falling even in places where both contraception & abortion are scarce. It's a global phenomenon.

They haven't died put yet, contraceptive technologies are still new, but every single one has a falling birthrate, none have ever recovered. So yes, I suppose there's no evidence until it actually happens, but everything indicates that it will. I wonder if you apply the same optimism to climate predictions!

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:35

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 03:00

No, the points I make are examples of views that don't deserve to be respected. You can't advocate for harm to women and expect other people to respect that.

In the same way you advocate harm to vulnerable young life isn't worthy of respect in the minds of others. You need better actual arguments

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:36

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:22

You clearly have no idea what the church teaches men then. They're just as restricted, no sex outside marraige, and even then only procreative acts. That infringes on their autonomy too. You have a warped view of what Christianity teaches. Many would argue these strictures are just as misandrist as they are misogynistic.

If the Catholic church was as misandrist as misogynistic, where is the male equivalent of the Magdalene Laundries? We only need to look at the recent history of Ireland to see the truth of a world with no contraception and abortion: the blighting of girls' and women's lives and theirs alone. What happened to the fathers of the babies in those mass graves? Absolutely nothing. It was the mothers whose lives were ruined. It is always women who pay the price when religion polices sexuality (gay people too, so I will agree gay men suffer) - all those girls and women forced into those laundries were there because of sex with men but it was only them who were punished.

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:47

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:35

In the same way you advocate harm to vulnerable young life isn't worthy of respect in the minds of others. You need better actual arguments

I have made so many arguments throughout the thread, you just need to scroll back a little! On this particular point, you can't weigh the potential life of a foetus against the real life of a woman. It comes down to a conflict between the two, and it's misogyny to value a foetus over a woman.

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:52

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:39

Yes, on left & right. On the right Kirk & Trump to name only two. On the left, Hortman & the Pelosis..And both sides are getting worse in terms of fringe online radicalisation

One side won't talk to the other. Kirk affirmed dialogue not violence. I don't think it's fair to say violence is a right wing problem at the moment

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:54

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:47

I have made so many arguments throughout the thread, you just need to scroll back a little! On this particular point, you can't weigh the potential life of a foetus against the real life of a woman. It comes down to a conflict between the two, and it's misogyny to value a foetus over a woman.

A feotus isn't a potential life - it is a life. That's where the difference lies. We draw different lines as to when the "baby" has been "had". You wouldn't kill a neonate, but I wonder if you would at 38 weeks gestation if it hadn't yet been born

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:55

But I don't expect anti-abortionists to respect my views. If they're out there arguing to take away women's rights over their own bodies and lives, then no they probably won't respect what I have to say. The ones who gather outside clinics with graphic photos and accusations of murder don't respect the women they're harassing and the ones campaigning for laws that will end women's lives don't respect them either. But regardless of respect on either side, I've made my case for why anti-abortionism is a misogynistic movement throughout this entire thread. I'm not name-calling or inciting violence; I have engaged in debate from my first comment. There's nothing uncivilised about anything I've said, so the fact that I don't respect an anti-abortion stance has no infringement on my ability and willingness to partake in discussion about it.

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:55

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:36

If the Catholic church was as misandrist as misogynistic, where is the male equivalent of the Magdalene Laundries? We only need to look at the recent history of Ireland to see the truth of a world with no contraception and abortion: the blighting of girls' and women's lives and theirs alone. What happened to the fathers of the babies in those mass graves? Absolutely nothing. It was the mothers whose lives were ruined. It is always women who pay the price when religion polices sexuality (gay people too, so I will agree gay men suffer) - all those girls and women forced into those laundries were there because of sex with men but it was only them who were punished.

I agree, that is a disgrace, but I'm not sure that is down to religion itself. I agree men should be as accountable

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:56

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:54

A feotus isn't a potential life - it is a life. That's where the difference lies. We draw different lines as to when the "baby" has been "had". You wouldn't kill a neonate, but I wonder if you would at 38 weeks gestation if it hadn't yet been born

That's all a discussion that's been had on the thread already. There's pages and pages of it and I'd rather not spend time repeating it all.

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 08:01

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:55

I agree, that is a disgrace, but I'm not sure that is down to religion itself. I agree men should be as accountable

But men are NOT accountable, never were and never will be.

it's not the spirit of religion, which is peaceful, but the structures and practice of it. It's a patriarchal institution. And when everything goes back to female original sin, the misogyny is baked in. And predating Christianity, we see policing of women's sexual behaviour - not because of the concept of sin but because societies have always been built for the benefit of men. The women of ancient Athens weren't veiled and kept indoors because of sin, but because of fears over paternity - that's all it's ever been. Christianity imposed a fearful view of sex over the top of it, but the restrictions have always functioned in the same way for the same reason - because men are afraid of whose baby a woman could be carrying and so seek to restrict her to ensure it's his bloodline that carries on. That's all that policing of sexual behaviour comes down to. Misogyny and distrust of women built into the rules that dictate everyday life whatever the religion or otherwise.

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 08:30

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 08:01

But men are NOT accountable, never were and never will be.

it's not the spirit of religion, which is peaceful, but the structures and practice of it. It's a patriarchal institution. And when everything goes back to female original sin, the misogyny is baked in. And predating Christianity, we see policing of women's sexual behaviour - not because of the concept of sin but because societies have always been built for the benefit of men. The women of ancient Athens weren't veiled and kept indoors because of sin, but because of fears over paternity - that's all it's ever been. Christianity imposed a fearful view of sex over the top of it, but the restrictions have always functioned in the same way for the same reason - because men are afraid of whose baby a woman could be carrying and so seek to restrict her to ensure it's his bloodline that carries on. That's all that policing of sexual behaviour comes down to. Misogyny and distrust of women built into the rules that dictate everyday life whatever the religion or otherwise.

Edited

I disagree, I think the restrictions on sexual behaviour is about ensuring children are born and raised in secure and loving homes, this guarantees the best outcomes and a better society. Women are also at the sharp end of family breakdown, it's very easy for men to abandon their responsibilities.

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 08:56

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 08:30

I disagree, I think the restrictions on sexual behaviour is about ensuring children are born and raised in secure and loving homes, this guarantees the best outcomes and a better society. Women are also at the sharp end of family breakdown, it's very easy for men to abandon their responsibilities.

Taking away women's right to abortion will do nothing to ensure babies are born in secure and loving homes.

Look, when I argue for women to have access to abortion, it isn't without acknowledgement of the conflict between foetus and mother. In an ideal world there would never be an unwanted pregnancy: no contraceptive failures, no rape, no abusive relationships, no child poverty and financial hardship, affordable high quality childcare, no barrier to mothers working and achieving progress and promotion, no terrible disabilities and conditions incompatible with life, no pregnancy complications that threaten the mother, no hyperemesis, no chronic illness, no antenatal depression, no post-partum depression and psychosis - none of those things would exist and we would have no need of abortion at all.

Well, that isn't the world we live in and so we do have unwanted and unviable pregnancies.

The anti-abortionist solution to this is to force women to bear children they don't want or can't afford or that will ruin their health or disable or even kill them. That's the answer: whatever the cost, whatever the harm, force women to bear these babies.

But there are other solutions. We'll never reach a world where no abortion is ever required, but there is so much we could do - tackle violence against women and girls, treat the existence of child poverty with the moral outrage abortion receives and work to end it, bolster protections for women in the workplace, prioritise women's health in research and treatment to find better help for them in pregnancy and post-partum (rather than just finding more and more restrictions like telling them not to take paracetamol!) - there are just so many ways in which we could make pregnancy and motherhood safer and easier, and that could reduce abortion rates (never down to zero though). I would also argue that we need to make sure women are not tied to bad relationships by having children, but to actually push harder for women to be able to live independently and raise children when they need to. I keep seeing anti-abortion arguments about the need for two parent families and I just don't know how you tackle relationship breakdowns without forcing people to stay in unhappy situations - perhaps better relationship education?

The problem with these solutions? Men would have to change their behaviour. And some people cannot contemplate a change in society that requires some sacrifice or effort from men. It's only supposed to be women who suffer. So they'll scoff at the idea that we could eradicate sexual violence or that we could enable women to work or lift children out of poverty because these things would affect men.

So the misogyny of the anti-abortion stance comes down to this: faced with the problem that sometimes the rights of a foetus and mother are in conflict, their answer is that women need to suffer. There can be no consequence for men, it is women and women alone who must pay the price.

Being pro-choice doesn't mean I relish the thought of abortion. But I accept that in an imperfect world, we need it. And if we want to reduce that need, we need to make positive changes to the way society functions - not punish women.

And by the way, I've been married to a man for twenty years and we've raised sons together so my arguments are not coming from a place of hating men (just the patriarchy!). I get that family stability is a wonderful thing. I have a career I love that wasn't derailed by having children. I had no life-threatening health problems in pregnancy or post-partum, which isn't to say I came through unscathed (I do have a birth injury that in fact I may need surgery for soon). I want all women to have access to the privileges I've enjoyed. I've never had an abortion myself but I am passionately grateful for the fact that if I'd needed one I could have had it. I understand how desperately we need to protect that freedom for all women.

earlyr1ser · 01/10/2025 10:14

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 08:30

I disagree, I think the restrictions on sexual behaviour is about ensuring children are born and raised in secure and loving homes, this guarantees the best outcomes and a better society. Women are also at the sharp end of family breakdown, it's very easy for men to abandon their responsibilities.

This, on the morning that the US announced mass layoffs of government employees. How secure do you suppose the homes and families of those people are feeling at the moment?

Peddling a return to traditional values while turning a blind eye to this kind of vandalism is the most astonishing act of fantasy. I wouldn’t take safeguarding advice from Jeffrey Epstein, and I won’t take value-of-human-life advice from the likes of you.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 15:02

CantCallItLove · 01/10/2025 07:36

If the Catholic church was as misandrist as misogynistic, where is the male equivalent of the Magdalene Laundries? We only need to look at the recent history of Ireland to see the truth of a world with no contraception and abortion: the blighting of girls' and women's lives and theirs alone. What happened to the fathers of the babies in those mass graves? Absolutely nothing. It was the mothers whose lives were ruined. It is always women who pay the price when religion polices sexuality (gay people too, so I will agree gay men suffer) - all those girls and women forced into those laundries were there because of sex with men but it was only them who were punished.

Yes, not to mention that traditionally women were taught to be led by their husbands and submit, no similar injunction for men

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 15:09

BlueJuniper94 · 01/10/2025 07:52

One side won't talk to the other. Kirk affirmed dialogue not violence. I don't think it's fair to say violence is a right wing problem at the moment

How can you deny that the right had any problem with violence when that Cato article lists many extreme right attacks?

Were Melissa Hortman, John Hoffman, Paul Pelosi, Esther Salas, Josh Shapiro, Mike Pence, Gretchen Whitmer, the 2024 Marine trying to blow up abortion clinics- the let's responsibility? No, they were the right.

Denying responsibility of one's ownn side is part of the problem. That is what you are doing. Stop it.

Plenty of leftists will debate & talk. Judging each side by online extremists only is unfair. Take Dean Withers, Ezra Klein , plenty of online leftists who debate right wingers as well as politicians who affirm dialogue.