Tired of the pro-choice lie

[Honesting]

I keep seeing people bring this up again, especially after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, that he once said if his 10-year-old daughter became pregnant through rape he’d insist she carry the baby. People call it misogynistic and vile. To be clear, that’s not my view and I’m not here to argue the pro-life case.

I actually have mixed feelings about abortion. I'm okay with the MAP and not okay with abortion up to the point of delivery. Where to draw the line is something I haven't decided yet.

What I do want to say is that it’s dishonest to pretend CK's position comes from hatred of women. The pro-life stance is very consistent and, internally, very coherent. If you genuinely believe an unborn child is a human being with rights, then ending its life is always wrong, no matter how it was conceived. We’d never allow a raped woman to kill her newborn, even if it was the product of rape. So if you see the foetus as having equal rights, then by that same logic, it shouldn’t matter whether conception was through rape.

I know the other side, and I understand it. I’m not dismissing the complexities. But the idea that the pro life argument is born of misogyny is simply false. It comes from a clear and reasonable moral framework: once human life begins, it carries human rights.

@FourIsNewSix

The one famous case in Poland was found to have not been a result of abortion laws, and the doctors were found guilty. So hardly a trend, the tragic case of Izabela notwithstanding.

Poland: Doctors found guilty over death of pregnant woman - BBC News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1lj145jy5zo.amp

@Honesting, you gave an equivocal statement on why your views are not 'forced birther' then, a whole three minutes later, implied that you would section a woman who was determined not to give birth.

Holding a pregnant woman in a secure facility to ensure she gives birth = forced birth. And imprisonment - for not wanting a baby.

Your valuation of women's bodies as publicly owned baby factories is showing.

Without proof? @Honesting you have been provided with proof as to the increase in WOMEN DYING WHEN YOU BAN ABORTION. The maternal mortality rate increases when you restrict access to abortion. You have been linked to data showing you that WOMEN DIE in higher numbers in states that have banned abortion than they did before the abortion ban and at a higher rate than in states where they have access to abortion. You have ignored this every single time it's been pointed out to you.

In another post, you dismiss that a policy which KILLS WOMEN could be misogynistic because the outcome of banning abortions is just an outcome 'a group of people (ie women) don't like'. No, women (and decent men) don't like policies that kill them. And policies that are put into place that result in serious harm to women are by definition misogynistic.

And no, the term forced birth is not disingenuous. We have the ability to provide abortions so if we withhold it, we are forcing women to give birth. If you're in hospital and they withhold medicatipn from you, they are forcing you to endure pain - you wouldn't say, oh no it is the natural outcome of my broken leg that I am in agony. Refusing to allow women to access healthcare is misogynistic.

I see you later dismiss women's mental health and you falsely claim that almost all anti-abortionists make an exception if the mother's life is in danger. You provide no evidence of this and again you ignore the actual data which shows in practice this is not true because real women have and continue to die where their access to abortion is restricted.

Your repeated refusal to engage with the fact that women die as a result of banning abortion shows your stance is the disingenuous and dishonest one. You are determined to say a stance which takes away women's bodily autonomy and causes them physical harm up to and including death is not a misogynistic one when it is the very definition of misogyny. You are so worried that forced birthers suffer a 'nasty accusation' that you ignore the suffering and deaths of women. That is misogyny.

If it helps @Honesting here are the maternal mortality stats again since you apparently think the Polish case to be an isolated incident. https://thegepi.org/maternal-mortality-abortion-bans/

By the way, do you consider the higher rate of maternal mortality among black women to be as a result of racism? You would be hard-pressed to argue otherwise. So why isn't the increase across the board due to anti-abortion policies misogynistic?

Your religion or morals tell you what to do - grand
Your religion or moras tell me what to do - fuck off

It’s control over a women’s body & nothing more. If we really want to end abortion, let’s make all young teenage boys have a vasectomy. If and when they want to procreate - they (& their wife/partner ) have to turn up and have counselling and sign a form. Hey presto - watch how quick abortion on demand is legal everywhere

When you say induced stillbirth, do you mean the baby had already died so they had to induce labour resulting in a stillborn? If that’s what you mean then no that is nothing like an abortion!

Did you get pregnant in not very nice circumstances or just the usual accident? I only ask because to kill yourself over pregnancy seems a lot

I can respect fully a totally pro life position but not if the person supports the death penalty, guns etc

Nope. Birth is just one of the natural options.
Another one is that the pregnancy ends on it's own.
Another one is drinking tea from parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme, or some more efficient and less poetic "stomach ache medication".

It's in human nature to act when something unwanted is happening to them.

In my case, I was subjected to a violent rape. I’m too old to have or recant but if I wasn’t, I could see quite easily that if I was pregnant I would have killed myself.

The not very nice circumstances you refer to - would you like me to detail (again) my rape?

Disgusting way to ask a poster who has shared an incredibly upsetting story already in the thread.

And guess what, it isn't just the 'not very nice' circumstances of rape or abusive relationships (both of which are common) that might result in a woman becoming suicidal over pregnancy.

Severe hyperemesis can make a woman suicidal. Antenatal depression can make a woman suicidal. Becoming pregnant when you already have a disabled child with very complex needs and no capacity left can make a woman suicidal. Becoming pregnant with a chronic illness or other health conditions that make life very difficult and challenging already can make a woman suicidal.

There are many circumstances in life that are 'not very nice'. Many physical and mental illnesses that can contribute to suicidal impulses. Try to find some empathy and understanding that other people's lives can be very complicated and not fit into your preconceptions.

Please inform yourself just a tiny bit before asking questions like this. In third-trimester abortions, a rare procedure usually performed due to incompatibility with life, it can be that the foetus in injected with something that stops its heart and labour is then induced. It means the suffering is over sooner; the alternative (which some women in this heartbreaking and painful situation choose) is to carry the baby to term and for the baby to die shortly after. So it is an abortion that requires delivery of a stillborn baby. It's easy to find this information out before you come arguing on an abortion thread and ask people insensitive questions.

As I shared upthread i was raped by a close male relative. Is that "not nice" enough?

What if it was "just" depression caused by pregnancy hormones?

And this is why @Honesting is so very wrong. The anti-choice movement is misogynistic to the core and we see it in action on these threads. Women opening up to share trauma and vulnerability only to be told 'that's a bit much'. And the OP will say 'oh of course rape victims and women whose life is endangered will always be exempt' while consistently ignoring and dismissing that these women are not exempt in practice - not when it comes to abortion bans in real life. All the data is there for us to see. It isn't theoretical or an abstract moral discussion. It is a brutal reality met only by women. And women's pain and suffering is dismissed over and over again. Because of misogyny.

The practical outcome of that position would be to remove the foetus and leave it to its own devices. If it survives, great; if not, that’s simply the unfortunate reality.

Who is going to look after this baby op?
Potentially disabled.

The foetus cells is not a baby..only a potential baby.
Every act of male >female sex (and rape) could be a potential baby that s why acces to contraception is there.

Abortion protects women simple as that

Abortion and contraception prevent unwanted babies being born. For the sake of the adults. Reality and justified.

No one forces anyone to have an abortion but here is nothing to justify taking away individual choice.

Considering I never asked you about it no I don’t need you to detail it. You opened that up by commenting on something you were not asked

You have absolutely no idea about my life or my experiences or why I was asking the question so maybe take your own advice and have a bit of understanding on why someone may ask such a question!! It may of been badly worded I admit but you were very quick to judge

Not sure who you are quoting the “just” depression but I haven’t said that. It was badly worded I admit but if you open up on a public forum obviously people may ask questions, whether that be to help understand or maybe they’re going through something similar

You were asking about people who pregnant in a not nice way. Does mine qualify?

Someone further up thread suggested that abortion was treated too lightly but I'd argue that your post seems very flippant in talking about pregnancy and bringing a child into the world.

I've been very fortunate - and I'm very glad - that I've not been in the position where I've had to consider whether a termination was the right course of action. However, I can easily imagine a situation where I would become suicidal if I was pregnant and didn't want to be, with no access to legal abortion. Not even just being pregnant in 'unpleasant circumstances' but as an accident arising within a loving relationship in a middle class home.

Pregnancy and raising a child or giving a child away are huge things. Killing yourself over it really doesn't seem 'a lot'. If it is, what are the reasons you deem proportionate to being suicidal?

I weren’t asking about people who get pregnant in not a nice away. I was asking the other poster what led to her pregnancy to try understand the mentality of someone preferring their own death over pregnancy.
Does yours qualify? Qualify for what? It’s not some sort of prize!! Whilst what you went through was was awful you said you didn’t get pregnant so you can’t say for a fact you would of taken your own life, we can assume and think but until we are in that circumstance we don’t know for definite what we’d do

Well, you have had a list now - not comprehensive - of situations where someone may be driven to suicide by an unwanted pregnancy. Not always because of a traumatic conception, but for a whole litany of reasons. Suicidal ideation and impulses are not logical, you cannot qualify someone's response as 'a lot' as if to suggest it an overreaction. But losing your bodily autonomy and going through the emotional and physical labour of pregnancy, birth, childrearing and/or giving a baby up for adoption are huge and life changing experiences. People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons and it's not for anyone to puzzle out what does and doesn't constitute a reasonable provocation.

The just wasn't a quote.

My point was that if I had severe depression caused by the rape then an abortion is apparently ok.

But if I was depressed and suicidal because I just was,hormones or whatever, then it's not ok.

Ultimately, there's no difference in the outcome. Aborted foetus and living me Vs both dead.

I'm not pro life but I don't think the argument about less women dying when abortions are available is going to really convince most people that believe life starts at conception, because they'll still see it as more lives saved overall.