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Feminism: chat

I feel sad about Angela Rayner

1000 replies

Neededa · 06/09/2025 06:13

OK, I am left leaning so maybe I am already biased, BUT, I do feel sad that a woman who overcame early issues, who was “proper” working class, who didn’t speak the kings English, but rather with a proper local dialect, and achieved a high office without a single spoon in her working class mouth, has gone.

i do understand that many people will agree with what has happened. I would have been fuming if the story played out the way it had as a different party, and I understand that Angela had to go, BUT as a woman who believes in holding up other women, particularly those who aren’t born to certain families, or have expectations placed on them from word go, I do feel a bit sad this morning.

There was a working class woman in the House of Commons. A working class woman was the deputy prime minister of this country. It is not even 100 years since working class women could vote. I feel sad.

OP posts:
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7
GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 14:42

In conclusion, Rayner has gone - hallelujah!

It also rather begs the question as to who will be next to get the bullet from our illustrious government…

jesusisarochdalegirl · 07/09/2025 15:23

RoseAndGeranium · 07/09/2025 09:45

So your contention is that now, after decades of widening access to higher education, when the proportion of state educated students at Oxford has never been higher and is to some extent artificially supported by policies that seek to recruit young people who attended state run schools and whose parents did not attend university, and after significant efforts to improve the proportion of women entering STEM subjects, and the opening of all colleges rather than 4 or 5 to women, that it would be HARDER for a girl with Margaret Thatcher’s background, obvious drive and talent to win a place to study chemistry at Oxford? Goodness. Those efforts and the large financial outlay associated with them were unnecessary and counterproductive, weren’t they?

Hello!

I can't believe I've been motivated by this to get a copy of Hugo Young's One of Us, which I read over 30 years ago.

Some useful extracts for your questions:

'[Alfred Roberts] was a small businessman on the way up. Choice not necessity led him to make his family take baths in an unplumbed tub for the first twenty years of Margaret's life: the muscular meanness of a man who positively frowned on the smallest form of self-indulgence...

'The Roberts [Margaret] knew belonged to the rising petty bourgeoisie not the beleaguered working class. In the mid-1930s, according to a historian, 75 per cent of all families were officially designated as working-class, earning £4 weekly or less... Alfred was already among the 20 per cent who could call themselves, if they chose, middle-class. As a shopkeeper, indeed, he was a particularly powerful member of it' (p.21).

It's interesting to note that the Conservative Party agent in Grantham thought Roberts likely to be right-wing Labour, who stood as an Independent - since formal affiliation didn't matter so much in local politics at the time. Roberts may also have been put off by the Cooperative Party controlling Labour in Grantham, which provided competition with his own shops (p.22).

Through local politics, family were also connected to Lord Brownlow, the head of the local landowning family who was also a municipal servant. When Thatcher reached No. 10, the family loaned Margaret the family silver to dignify the public rooms in Downing Street (p.24).

Margaret won a county scholarship to KGGS, which meant that the half of the fees her parents would normally have paid were covered (p.26). Young describes her as: 'not particularly brilliant, but she was very hard-working, and her contemporaries remember her as a model pupil of demure habits and tediously impeccable behaviour' (p.26).

He notes that KGGS, typical for girls' day schools at the time, had 'a thin but steady stream of pupils passing on to Oxford and Cambridge' (p.28). And '[Roberts] managed to put together the money to send her, since she was not awarded a scholarship' (p.30).

Young's conclusion is that 'after considering her early life as Alfred's adored creation, one is obliged to revise the common belief that her entry to Oxford was remarkable' (p.31).

The key hurdle was the entry to KGGS, I think - winning the county scholarship certainly helped, but she would have attended anyway, with the money saved from not having indoor plumbing and relentless hard work.

Four-fifths of children left school at 14 in the late 1930s and early 1940s. So the talent pool was much smaller. Moreover, the girls' schools at the time were extremely strong - partly because so many of their teachers became career teachers after the First World War.

It is hard to say how a candidate of Thatcher's ability would fare nowadays. The diligence and seriousness would play extremely well at interview if a girl of that calibre got to the interviewing stage. It's not really a thought experiment that makes sense: the nonconformists of Thatcher's generation often headed towards London and the professions, rather than staying in small businesses.

So if we imagine that MT hadn't been born, but that her double had been born in 2007 as Alf Roberts' great-granddaughter - it's much more likely she would have grown up in a well-positioned family in London's commuter belt, attending one of the better-known private day schools or super-selective grammar schools, depending on whether her parents had worked in the private or public sector. If the family had stayed in Grantham, KGGS still has a reliable handful of students heading to Oxbridge each year.

But it's hard to imagine that that young person, growing up in the 2000s, would have been brought up with such strict Methodism and discipline, or in 'a home of aggressive thrift' (p.29). And that discipline plus her good-but-not-brilliant brain helped her get to Somerville - admittedly the strongest of the women's colleges in academic terms. (Of course, all of the women's colleges were academically-strong - because there were so few of them, and they had the pick of female applicants.)

I'll leave it to Oxford to explain that their offer rates to state school candidates are very much not 'artificially supported by policies that seek to recruit young people who attended state run schools'.

@Blossomtoes and @Efacsen - university fees were still payable until 1962 following the recommendations of the Anderson Report, which is why scholarships still mattered so much: University fees in historical perspective - History & Policy

University fees in historical perspective - History & Policy

Prof. Robert Anderson looks at the history of university tuition fees and asks whether the restoration of free higher education in England is politically possible, or indeed, desireable. 

https://historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/university-fees-in-historical-perspective/

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 15:30

@jesusisarochdalegirl Ah thank you for correcting me on the grant situation in the 1950s

.

derxa · 07/09/2025 15:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 15:42

Reports that Emily Thornberry plans to run to fill Rayner’s vacant seat?

This could get funky, as she’s not exactly besties with Starmer from memory….

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 15:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Shame you didn't like - I thought it was interesting and informative

Askingforafriendtoday · 07/09/2025 15:46

She shouldn't have been allowed to resign, she should have been sacked.

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 07/09/2025 15:46

jesusisarochdalegirl · 07/09/2025 15:23

Hello!

I can't believe I've been motivated by this to get a copy of Hugo Young's One of Us, which I read over 30 years ago.

Some useful extracts for your questions:

'[Alfred Roberts] was a small businessman on the way up. Choice not necessity led him to make his family take baths in an unplumbed tub for the first twenty years of Margaret's life: the muscular meanness of a man who positively frowned on the smallest form of self-indulgence...

'The Roberts [Margaret] knew belonged to the rising petty bourgeoisie not the beleaguered working class. In the mid-1930s, according to a historian, 75 per cent of all families were officially designated as working-class, earning £4 weekly or less... Alfred was already among the 20 per cent who could call themselves, if they chose, middle-class. As a shopkeeper, indeed, he was a particularly powerful member of it' (p.21).

It's interesting to note that the Conservative Party agent in Grantham thought Roberts likely to be right-wing Labour, who stood as an Independent - since formal affiliation didn't matter so much in local politics at the time. Roberts may also have been put off by the Cooperative Party controlling Labour in Grantham, which provided competition with his own shops (p.22).

Through local politics, family were also connected to Lord Brownlow, the head of the local landowning family who was also a municipal servant. When Thatcher reached No. 10, the family loaned Margaret the family silver to dignify the public rooms in Downing Street (p.24).

Margaret won a county scholarship to KGGS, which meant that the half of the fees her parents would normally have paid were covered (p.26). Young describes her as: 'not particularly brilliant, but she was very hard-working, and her contemporaries remember her as a model pupil of demure habits and tediously impeccable behaviour' (p.26).

He notes that KGGS, typical for girls' day schools at the time, had 'a thin but steady stream of pupils passing on to Oxford and Cambridge' (p.28). And '[Roberts] managed to put together the money to send her, since she was not awarded a scholarship' (p.30).

Young's conclusion is that 'after considering her early life as Alfred's adored creation, one is obliged to revise the common belief that her entry to Oxford was remarkable' (p.31).

The key hurdle was the entry to KGGS, I think - winning the county scholarship certainly helped, but she would have attended anyway, with the money saved from not having indoor plumbing and relentless hard work.

Four-fifths of children left school at 14 in the late 1930s and early 1940s. So the talent pool was much smaller. Moreover, the girls' schools at the time were extremely strong - partly because so many of their teachers became career teachers after the First World War.

It is hard to say how a candidate of Thatcher's ability would fare nowadays. The diligence and seriousness would play extremely well at interview if a girl of that calibre got to the interviewing stage. It's not really a thought experiment that makes sense: the nonconformists of Thatcher's generation often headed towards London and the professions, rather than staying in small businesses.

So if we imagine that MT hadn't been born, but that her double had been born in 2007 as Alf Roberts' great-granddaughter - it's much more likely she would have grown up in a well-positioned family in London's commuter belt, attending one of the better-known private day schools or super-selective grammar schools, depending on whether her parents had worked in the private or public sector. If the family had stayed in Grantham, KGGS still has a reliable handful of students heading to Oxbridge each year.

But it's hard to imagine that that young person, growing up in the 2000s, would have been brought up with such strict Methodism and discipline, or in 'a home of aggressive thrift' (p.29). And that discipline plus her good-but-not-brilliant brain helped her get to Somerville - admittedly the strongest of the women's colleges in academic terms. (Of course, all of the women's colleges were academically-strong - because there were so few of them, and they had the pick of female applicants.)

I'll leave it to Oxford to explain that their offer rates to state school candidates are very much not 'artificially supported by policies that seek to recruit young people who attended state run schools'.

@Blossomtoes and @Efacsen - university fees were still payable until 1962 following the recommendations of the Anderson Report, which is why scholarships still mattered so much: University fees in historical perspective - History & Policy

You have to love Hugo Young’s (Ampleforth and Balliol) sniffy, Hampstead leftist tone! I liked his work but I wouldn’t treat him as an even-handed biographer of Thatcher.

Anyway, the consensus seems to be that Thatcher was lower middle-class.

However you cut it, and for or against her politics, she was remarkable.

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 15:53

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 07/09/2025 15:46

You have to love Hugo Young’s (Ampleforth and Balliol) sniffy, Hampstead leftist tone! I liked his work but I wouldn’t treat him as an even-handed biographer of Thatcher.

Anyway, the consensus seems to be that Thatcher was lower middle-class.

However you cut it, and for or against her politics, she was remarkable.

Completely agree.

And before the haters steam in.

Historically, MPs have rated Margaret Thatcher as the most successful post-war prime minister, just ahead of Clement Attlee

derxa · 07/09/2025 15:55

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 15:42

Shame you didn't like - I thought it was interesting and informative

Some of it was. But Hugo Young head boy
at Ampleforth and writer for the Guardian 🤮

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 15:58

derxa · 07/09/2025 15:55

Some of it was. But Hugo Young head boy
at Ampleforth and writer for the Guardian 🤮

Well that would spoil it for you, wouldn't it

taxguru · 07/09/2025 16:00

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 14:42

In conclusion, Rayner has gone - hallelujah!

It also rather begs the question as to who will be next to get the bullet from our illustrious government…

Surely has to be the hopeless Rachel.

derxa · 07/09/2025 16:01

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 15:58

Well that would spoil it for you, wouldn't it

It sounds he wormed his way into her confidence and then did a hatchet job.

SeagullSam2027 · 07/09/2025 16:04

taxguru · 07/09/2025 16:00

Surely has to be the hopeless Rachel.

Another incompetent liar.

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 07/09/2025 16:05

taxguru · 07/09/2025 16:00

Surely has to be the hopeless Rachel.

That’s in the hands of the markets. She won’t survive any real market turbulence.

But Starmer will cling to her if he can. The way things have gone, their fates are now closely linked.

BIossomtoes · 07/09/2025 16:09

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 15:30

@jesusisarochdalegirl Ah thank you for correcting me on the grant situation in the 1950s

.

Edited

Yes, thank you. I assumed (wrongly) that local authorities covered them.

taxguru · 07/09/2025 16:16

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 07/09/2025 16:05

That’s in the hands of the markets. She won’t survive any real market turbulence.

But Starmer will cling to her if he can. The way things have gone, their fates are now closely linked.

She's already surviving very high interest rates on gilts - (i.e. national debt), far higher than they went due to Truss! Heaven knows how she's clinging on.

Thefastandthecurious5 · 07/09/2025 16:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

How? I didn’t get that impression at all. If you define snobbery as an upper class person looking down on someone from a lower class, I don’t see how you could say this post is ‘dripping with snobbery’. I think it’s actually pretty factual.

Efacsen · 07/09/2025 16:19

BIossomtoes · 07/09/2025 16:09

Yes, thank you. I assumed (wrongly) that local authorities covered them.

Me too - tho' thinking about it my father's parents couldn't afford to send him to university [mid 1950s] even though he was clearly very bright and hardworking

BruFord · 07/09/2025 16:20

@jesusisarochdalegirl Yes, thank you for that, I’d also assumed that grants were available earlier than 1962. It explains something in my own family-my Dad has said that my My Mum couldn’t continue studying Medicine after her first year “due to money” and I thought he’d got it wrong, but it makes sense now. Her widowed Mum worked but it wouldn’t be enough.

We seem to be moving back in that direction nowadays with university costs rising plus the overall COL. What a mess.

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 16:21

taxguru · 07/09/2025 16:00

Surely has to be the hopeless Rachel.

I think so, too.

She’s being retained on ice for when the budget proves a calamity.

Hence, Jones and Shafick.

Thefastandthecurious5 · 07/09/2025 16:22

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 15:42

Reports that Emily Thornberry plans to run to fill Rayner’s vacant seat?

This could get funky, as she’s not exactly besties with Starmer from memory….

I don’t understand how that would work, as Rayner’s seat isn’t vacant, because she has only resigned as a minister and not as an MP.

BIossomtoes · 07/09/2025 16:22

BruFord · 07/09/2025 16:20

@jesusisarochdalegirl Yes, thank you for that, I’d also assumed that grants were available earlier than 1962. It explains something in my own family-my Dad has said that my My Mum couldn’t continue studying Medicine after her first year “due to money” and I thought he’d got it wrong, but it makes sense now. Her widowed Mum worked but it wouldn’t be enough.

We seem to be moving back in that direction nowadays with university costs rising plus the overall COL. What a mess.

Edited

To be fair we probably need to. There aren’t enough jobs for all the graduates coming out of universities now and there’s a desperate shortage of skilled tradespeople. We need more people doing apprenticeships now.

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 16:25

Thefastandthecurious5 · 07/09/2025 16:22

I don’t understand how that would work, as Rayner’s seat isn’t vacant, because she has only resigned as a minister and not as an MP.

As in Deputy…

Thefastandthecurious5 · 07/09/2025 16:26

GabrielsOboe · 07/09/2025 16:25

As in Deputy…

Sorry, I still don’t understand. David Lammy’s now been chosen to be Deputy Prime Minister. I think I’m definitely misunderstanding something.

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