'Toxic Femininity'

[MiloMinderbinder925]

Aggravating article by by Douglas Murray. Apparently the ladies are being irrational again. The arguments for decriminalising abortion and AD were emotional manipulation.

At risk of making more enemies, let me point out that while we have heard plenty about “toxic masculinity,” there is also such a thing as “toxic femininity.” This includes the idea that we will be saved and our problems resolved by compassion and empathy, all other judgments and rationales being put to one side.

In recent days the meaning, depth and value of life in this country contracted at both ends. Not for any rational reason, but because if we did not we would be lacking understanding and kindness. But the calls are a mirage, and the promises a lie. We’ll see who hits the rocks first.

'includes the idea that we will be saved and our problems resolved by compassion and empathy'

Wait... That sounds great

I can’t read the full article, so feel I’m missing context.

Copy and paste into archive ph. Although it's mostly waffle.

But that's the TRA argument.

Based only on your extracts, he would seem to have a point.

Posters on threads about decriminalising abortion said it was right to do so because it was cruel to investigate women who have lost babies. But that 'be kind' argument that we also mean we would not investigate women whose born babies died. Or Fathers. Or investigate when older children died. Or perhaps men whose wives died. Be kind rarely leads to good decisions.

The quality of debate was missing in that decriminalisation discussion. Because it was seen as more 'kind' to push it through. It failed to address the root cause which is the ease with which women can now, via the internet, obtain at home abortions with no real checks.

I don't agree with either decriminalisation or AD. I agree that the arguments for AD especially weren't well reasoned. However, I take umbrage with his stereotyping and clichés about women being irrational and trying to win arguments with a wobbly lip.

It's not just women who argued for AD or gave personal anecdotes during the debate. It's not just women who bully people to "be kind".

I don't want to read the whole article but I'm sure he has a point, toxic femininity is a thing. If you as a woman have ever been shamed for speaking too loud, being too bold, not conforming to beauty standards, or not being "kind enough" then yes that's all part of toxic feminine ideas. IMO toxic masc/toxic femme are just related to stereotypes and how they're made to enclose people.

I didn't seen in those two paragraphs any of the things you did.

You will if you read the article, the link is in the OP.

Really? They're not constraints placed on women by men? You don't think women are put in a box and criticised if they peep out?

I don't know how you got this impression from my post.

You referred to it as toxic femininity ie by women towards women.

I am sure feminity could be toxic, although I don't know if the article says that as I can't read it.

Copy and paste into archive ph.

I didn't specify the gender of the perpetrator in my post, but women can be toxic to other women too, yes.

Which is internalised misogyny.

Which can be externalized and toxic.

If there's toxic masculinity then surely there's toxic femininity.

Of course. Misogyny tends to be externalised and toxic.

Sometimes, but sometimes not.

What is men being vile to other men labelled as under this framework?

Some people are just vile to other people for a whole host of reasons, personal trauma, desire for status, desiring power, desire for belonging, personal circumstances lowering their resilience. And so on.

Sorry OP you are just not making your case. You even now claim the quotes you chose to put in don't even make your own case.

What case?

I think this thread has the weirdest OP posts I have come across, bar one who was clearly having a laugh and succeeding in being funny.

That's good to know.

I think those constraints often come from other women. I don't know how that would breakdown 50/50 or 90/10. I just don't know but I've worked with some horribly judgemental women but then my friends are quite different so hard to know really.

I think he has a point- the debates around decriminalisation and assisted dying were poor, very much characterised by what my kids would call vibes rather than clear-sighted analysis, the vibes in question being a sort of wishy-washy “let’s all be kind without thinking through the consequences”. I have no problem with someone suggesting this is toxic femininity- it’s a point to debate but not one particularly offensive to women. Toxic femininity/masculinity aren’t terms about what women/men do - they’re terms about harmful gendered values.

It's internalised misogyny. We live in a misogynist society where women have internalised negative views of women.