'Toxic Femininity'

[MiloMinderbinder925]

Aggravating article by by Douglas Murray. Apparently the ladies are being irrational again. The arguments for decriminalising abortion and AD were emotional manipulation.

At risk of making more enemies, let me point out that while we have heard plenty about “toxic masculinity,” there is also such a thing as “toxic femininity.” This includes the idea that we will be saved and our problems resolved by compassion and empathy, all other judgments and rationales being put to one side.

In recent days the meaning, depth and value of life in this country contracted at both ends. Not for any rational reason, but because if we did not we would be lacking understanding and kindness. But the calls are a mirage, and the promises a lie. We’ll see who hits the rocks first.

So you think the points made by men weren't 'wishy washy'? I agree that the whole debate wasn't based on factual analysis, was myopic and emotive but I don't see those as soley feminine traits.

Toxic masculinity/feminity are not hypothetical, they are of course based on what people do.

I think you’re misunderstanding what he means by toxic femininity. It’s not about who made which point but about the value that was placed on wishy-washy “let’s all be nice” thinking. That’s a harmful social value imposed on women (“just be nice and amenable”) just as toxic masculinity describes the harmful social values imposed on men (“be strong and tough, don’t show weakness etc”).

You might prefer to use the term in a different way- that’s fine. But that’s not how he’s using the term in the article.

Obviously it is about who made which point:

But never mind, because in all these cases the argument and rationale has each time been reduced to “compassion” and “understanding.” Leadbeater and Creasy are masters at making speaking and emoting the same thing. Both present their moral arguments – such as they are – in a way in which their faces crumple and voices crack with empathy at all times. Everything is about “understanding,” “listening,” “speaking for” and “alleviating” the suffering of others.

A. He's talking about femininity and B. He uses two women as an example of this 'toxic femininity'.

He's using centuries old stereotypes of women, as though these women represent all women who reduce arguments to emotions. As though that's a 'feminine' trait. Yet men also put forward arguments about understanding, compassion and alleviating the suffering of others.

Can’t read the article but yes toxic femininity based on the idea what women are ‘nice’ and putting us under pressure to be inclusive, caring, empathetic etc is very much a thing.

Women can be assholes, and what’s more a word based entirely on empathy and compassion would be a stifling, boring, horrific place to live in.

You can read the article by pasting into archive ph.

I don't think empathy and compassion are 'toxic' or horrific.

If you join your local library (done in 3 clicks), you have access to PressReader and can read it for free. As well as hundreds of other publications of all opinions and topics.

I gratefully thank the MNer who mentioned it this week on another thread.

No but to live in a world ruled only by these values would be horrific. We need competition, elitism, entrepreneurship and ambition too. The question is how to balance them.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

It aggravated me too.

The references to the Odyssey particularly annoyed. I’m afraid anyone using classical depictions of female monsters from Greek myth as illuminating anything about flesh and blood women isn’t going to win me over. I’m fully on board with modern views that portrayals of women and female beings in the myths are mostly distorted by misogyny.

Not a feminist point, but I also didn’t think the quote he gave shed new light on the sirens. Nothing against the translation at all, but I came away feeling he just wanted to shoehorn it in to impress us all with the fact he’s abreast of the latest translations of Homer.

He makes an emotive point himself:

I happened to be with a friend this week who is six months pregnant, and was horrified that the child she and her husband were already caring for would be deemed good to abort in England and Wales.

Its exactly the kind of anecdote he's accusing women of making.

That seems a bit much! I guess I see the issue as one of judgement. For example, one could empathise w a mugger if they had been horrifically abused as a child. But one would and should obvs empathise more w the victim of the mugger, and empathy for the mugger's horrible past should not mean they escape prison, though it should mean they are given the chance of rehabilitation while in there.

Imo the answer in that kind of situation is not less empathy per se but to redirect the empathy to the appropriate target.

So I guess you mean that a world where people never used judgement to determine where empathy is most appropriately directed would be a horrible place? Or something else...?

Murray sometimes strikes me as a certain kind of gay man who can be somewhat misogynistic... I agree w him about the abortion & to some extent assisted dying debates but I don't like the Odyssey references. He seems a bit up himself imo

I see what you mean. Competition & ambition aren't by default unempathetic though. If people are happy & tough enough ti compete they shouldn't be unduly harmed.

Femininity is about being passive and obedient, being passive and obedient is 'toxic' because it means others can exploit you.
Is that what is meant by toxic femininity?

To me the most harmful aspect of toxic femininity hasn't been the "be kind" mantra, but the "feminism is whatever an individual woman chooses" mantra.

That's how we got into the situation where getting butt lifts and blow job lips and embracing throttling in sex became "empowering" and it paved the way for a lot of bad shit IMO

Yes!! No criticism in case hurt feelings causes worse harm. Also where feminism is twisted to mean demanding FDS style princess pampering 24/7, & the sad girl music trend- not that sad music is bad, but I feel SM encourages women to over-wallowvin negative emotions & that makes then weaker, hence why SM gives wimen worse mental health, tho it's bad for men too.

Also competitive niceness, so people can't criticise things like the dangers of assisted dying

No I mean the kind of thing where, I don’t know, school grades and sports medals aren’t a thing because it would upset others not to win. Enforced equality. I read a parenting book once where the author described sitting on the pavement with her daughter for hours because she didn’t want to move and she felt she wanted to empathise with her feelings because being a little person is so difficult and it just made me roll my eyes so hard. Pick the kid up and get going. That kind of thing — suffocating niceness.

I think Chimamanda said it best:

We raise girls to see each other as competitors – not for jobs or accomplishments, which in my opinion can be a good thing, but for the attention of men.

“Toxic femininity” is not a thing and I will die on this hill.

Not really. Toxic masculinity is just what we used to call hypermasculinity.

Which would make “toxic femininity” simply being hyperfeminine. But hyperfemininity and hypermasculinity wildly different.