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Feminism: chat

For those who were on Good Law Project

107 replies

Tandora · 20/06/2025 18:58

Please see the highlighted paragraph at the very start of the judgement. The judgement was about how to interpret certain words in the context of the EA 2010. They were not making judgements about what biological sex means, what gender means or how policy should be organised. That is not the role of courts. They are not scientists and they are not government. The role of the SC was to interpret the meaning of the words in the specific statute as it was written. Thats all. The end.

For those who were on Good Law Project
OP posts:
RareGoalsVerge · 21/06/2025 15:29

Tandora · 21/06/2025 06:01

In order for you to be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic you have to show it's proportionate and legitimate right?

Surely we could have a service where we say, ok it's proportionate and legitimate to keep biological males (in general) out of this services for x. y, z reason.
However, some of these males have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, because of this characteristic they actually to all intents and purposes (for example) look like women/ have the anatomy of women, therefore they would not upset the women, meanwhile it would be profoundly upsetting for these trans women to be excluded for x, y, z reason. Therefore for this sub group the discrimination (exclusion) on the basis of sex isn't legitimate and proportionate and therefore it isn't lawful.

Isn't the fundamental problem with this that there are plenty of transwomen who have not had any feminisation treatments of any kind and who do not have a GRC (and in any case it is specifically forbidden to ask if someone has a GRC) so there would definitely be some transwomen who would not meet the conditions you describe, and it would be abhorrent to have a gatekeeping that listed thresholds/targets that a transwoman must meet to divide them into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" - so doesn't it therefore follow that there needs to be all "all or none" approach - either if the most stealth/passing tw is allowed in then the most masculine-looking must be too, or you have to have some kind of threshold/boundary and how do you decide where to draw that line?

MyAmpleSheep · 21/06/2025 17:13

KateShugakIsALegend · 21/06/2025 15:11

Not trying to detail, but reflecting on this - I wonder how clubs like the Garrick fit in to all of this?

Single sex clubs are lawful. Both men only, and women only.

MyAmpleSheep · 21/06/2025 17:14

RareGoalsVerge · 21/06/2025 15:29

Isn't the fundamental problem with this that there are plenty of transwomen who have not had any feminisation treatments of any kind and who do not have a GRC (and in any case it is specifically forbidden to ask if someone has a GRC) so there would definitely be some transwomen who would not meet the conditions you describe, and it would be abhorrent to have a gatekeeping that listed thresholds/targets that a transwoman must meet to divide them into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" - so doesn't it therefore follow that there needs to be all "all or none" approach - either if the most stealth/passing tw is allowed in then the most masculine-looking must be too, or you have to have some kind of threshold/boundary and how do you decide where to draw that line?

Where ever is it written that it’s forbidden to ask id someone has a GRC?

the all-or-nothing approach is the only one permitted by statute. It’s not a value judgment based on workability or fairness, it just is what it is.

Shedmistress · 21/06/2025 17:25

The European Convention of Human Rights Article 8 the Right to Privacy.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/human-rights/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

So a man who has a certificate to say he is a woman is afforded the right to never disclose that he is a man, but a woman who wants single sex care, doesn't have the right to know that the woman she is sent is a man.

MyAmpleSheep · 21/06/2025 17:31

I doing see any legal interpretation of Article 8 that means you can’t ask if someone has a GRC. My understanding of the interpretation of Article 8 is that you can’t disadvantage someone for refusing to say if they have a GRC, but you can still ask.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 21/06/2025 18:22

Tandora · 21/06/2025 10:01

The only way to keep males out is to have a single sex service… but the structure of the EA doesn’t permit you to operate a nearly-single sex service

I see what you mean , it’s the language of “single sex service” , so it’s not that you can exclude men from services on the basis of sex , it’s that the act specifically only allows this in the context of the provision of “a single sex service” which has now been clarified to mean “birth sex”. What a mess.

Edited

If you understand the Equality Act 2010 then you realise the difference between inclusion, exclusion & what constitute single sex services so then it's not a mess at all.
The Supreme Court confirmed that the protected characteristic of sex has to be biological sex as the only way for the Act to work correctly. With this simple fact & an understanding of how EA2010 works every scenario can be easily worked through.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 22/06/2025 18:00

MyAmpleSheep · 21/06/2025 05:43

It can be used to distinguish between different groups of birth females. It’s exactly symmetric between the sexes. So a men-only group can legitimately exclude (on the grounds of his gender reassignment) someone they think would negatively affect the rest of the group. Think Dylan Mulvaney in a support group for wife-beaters.

You can legally keep people out of single-sex group on the basis of their gender reassignment. What you can’t do is legally include extra people in on the basis of their gender reassignment.

"You can legally keep people OUT of single-sex group on the basis of their gender reassignment. What you can’t do is legally include extra people IN on the basis of their gender reassignment."

Very helpful summary, thank you!

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