To think it's easier for men to manage staff, because of the patriarchal society we live in

[Batmanisaplaceinturkey]

I was in two minds about where to post this. Feminism or AIBU.
Hear me out, I might be expressing this clumsily, but here goes:

Managing staff can be a struggle but I'm thinking men might have it easier because they don't have to earn the respect that women do, aren't seen as shrill or bossy etc.
To manage well your team need to trust and respect you but we start with zero or negative balance whereas men already have the capital because of society, in built misogyny.
It doesn't matter how good a manager you are, you're on the back foot because you don't have the capital that men automatically have, due to unconscious misogyny.
Just like at work or life in general, women have to work harder to be seen and have to strive to earn recognition. Same in management. Male direct reports don't like a woman leading and females don't need to please in the same way they unconsciously would If the manager is a man.
it's another example of how men have it easier.
I realised this over the weekend and now I can't unsee it. Fuck the patriarchy.

Gosh sorry you feel this way OP. I don't feel this way at all, I've worked in my profession (fintech) from graduation 32 years ago to director level in engineering (so quite male dominated). I think leadership and management is based on how someone is as a person in terms of their skills, capabilities and core leadership skills. Have you sat down and methodically mapped out where you want to get to in terms of your career and how you intend to get there?

I disagree.

But as a 56 year old who's worked since I was 14, I would have agreed with you about 30 years ago.

Female managers really aren't rare enough anymore to be able to say 'they have to try harder' etc.

Managers are just managers now and some will be brilliant and some will be shit, but that's rarely down to their sex IME.

I work in the third sector where management kind be quite soft, accountability can be low. It can be stuck behind because progress is slower. Perhaps that is a factor.

I know this is anecdotal but every female manager I know (all in same sector) has had struggles, not with all staff, just at times with men showing weaponised incompetence and women resenting another woman being the boss, because it's not seen as the natural order of things maybe?!

If you’re in a misogynistic org then it might be ‘easier’ for a man but that in no way means he’d actually be better at it than a woman.

I am not saying men are better. They often are not. They just find it easier.

It depends on so many things that aren't related to the patriarchy.

Its partly down to what the upper management are like.
But its mainly due to the team that you have.

I agree with you OP that female managers are more likely to encounter a report who doesn’t respect them because of their sex (and ditto with managing up). But I don’t think that’s a management thing. Women at every stage of a career are far more likely than men to be disadvantaged by some around them ignoring their ideas or questioning their expertise and authority because of their sex. It’s still an issue in the workplace and life in general.

I think a lot of female socialization is conducive to good management, more so than male socialization, though, so I think it’s easier for women to be good managers in some ways.

People can't endlessly blame patriarchy for their failings, it is a nice try but if someone is inadequate that is on them

I actually thought all the evidence was that women made better leaders than men.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinkruse/2023/03/31/new-research-women-more-effective-than-men-in-all-leadership-measures/

OP didn't say women make worse managers, where are some of you getting that from?

She says that however good a manager you are, you're on the back foot because men are often automatically assumed to be authoritative, to have more gravitas. I agree. Many people of both sexes have more respect for men, whether they realise it or not. It's getting better, but slowly.

I think women are often more keen to be liked and therefore find it harder to sometimes do what is needed. Whether that is related to the patriarchy and conditioning I'm not sure.

Yes expecting women to be kind and nice and boys to be leaders is patriarchal

and yes both sexes seem to find it harder to accept leadership from women

a man gives an order after discussion and it’s taken on board
a woman - it’s questioned by lots of people or ignored

suffering a lot with this at the moment - I was explicitly told that I should modify my behaviour to “gentle encouragement “ as “he expects, as the man, to be in charge “

with attitudes like that and the nerve to say it out loud …

One of my friends is a manager who manages very senior men who themselves manage people.

She has been complained about many times for her management style. The crux of the complaints has generally been that the men don't expect to be spoken to that way by a woman.

Not that her approach was unprofessional just unfeminine.

I've never had problems managing people. I have always been told i am bossy, aggressive and so on and so on. I always ask for an example, and i can always find an example of a man being more bossy/aggressive than me and ask if they complained about him. Then i carry on.

I defo think some men don't like 'being told what do by a woman.' On the flipside though there's defo the stereotype of the man 'only having got the job by being middle, class, white, and playing golf' which often seems to get rolled out by the disgruntled person that didn't get the job.

I do notice men who don't like working for women, they don't benefit from my leadership at work - as I'm a confident sort I rather consider it their loss.

I also work with men who are threatened by my competence. Largely I find that quite funny.

Obviously it's all very frustrating and annoying, but I've largely found that since becoming a parent, I don't have the energy to waste energy worrying about it all, and the associated drama.

Life isn't just about work.

I tend to think that men have it different rather than easier. I work in a male dominated sector, with a lot of men 20 years older than me. They keep telling ne how fast their kids grew up. Reading between the lines, they are sad they were away working for most of their kids childhoods, while their wives were SAHP. We all name our choices.

I also tend to observe that men are also much more egotistical and awkward with each other over stuff, too. As a woman I can often cut through dick-waving posturing!

I have had the same this week apparently all I do is give negative comments despite having publicly praised this person in a meeting and written a commendation for him. But because I have said one aspect of work needs improvement I am "always negative and need to think how I speak to people."

Yeah, I agree both sexes have it different. We hear a lot about how the man is privileged to be able to maintain his career but we don't often hear people mention the downside of missing a lot of key moments with his kids. I think some people just assume men don't care about this stuff which isn't true for the most part.

In many situations I'd say it's worse missing out on family time as the wife still gets full benefit of the husband's income if finances are shared.

I do think a female approach can often cut though the male one upmanship at work, but I think women seem to also often have issues working with each other. I do remember seeing a few studies about how men collaborate better and how a man and woman will usually collaborate better than two women. And also that both sexes prefer male bosses with women feeling even more strongly about it than men.

This is the big advantage of running your own successful company. You employ a brilliant HR manager and disrespectful staff either improve their attitude or are managed out. Patriarchal shit can really ruin the dynamic of a strong team.

I think it’s a known fact that male voices are considered more authoritative and that gives them a natural advantage. It’s definitely the case men have advantages everywhere because of the patriarchy - think of the blind recruitment tests - and all of it feeds in to knowing that people will listen to a known man because man more readily. Even in writing, women found early on that having a male name gets you more readership than not! Importing misogynistic cultures doesn’t help, as teachers have found.

None of that means women are worse: just that men are sexist and misogynistic.

In healthcare it’s been found that women get better results.

I was made a department manager at age 21, then went on to be eventually promoted to office manager.

Never had any trouble with Men or Women.

I think it comes down to personality, I am quite authoritative and I am fairly confident in my own abilities. Also would not put up with any sexism or misogyny.

Yeah, I've never had many issues either. When somebody has been difficult to work with I feel it's normally just their personality rather than anything sex related.

Don't agree with the above comment of "men are sexist and misogynistic". I don't think the majority are at all. It's a small group of men at the top holding the power but as a result a much larger number of women seem to hate the opposite sex than man do, and they seem to extend their hate to a huge number of men who aren't responsible or have any influence on the way the system is.

It’s a bit of a chicken and egg thing for me. I’ve worked with quite a few managers over the years - both men and women - and something I’ve noticed (just from personal experience) is that some of the female managers came across pretty sharp. Like, instructions would be given in this clipped tone, no real warmth, no smile. It almost felt like they were expecting pushback before it even happened.

And I don’t mean to bash anyone, I think it could be that they had been treated with less respect earlier in their careers, and by the time I worked with them, they’d already learned that they had to be firm from the get-go just to be heard. Or maybe it wasn’t even based on what had actually happened, just the expectation of how people would respond to a woman in charge, and so they braced for it from day one. So that’s why I say it’s kind of chicken and egg.

The male managers I worked with, apart from one, tended to be more relaxed. They still gave clear instructions, but it was usually with a more easygoing tone, like they didn’t feel the need to assert their authority in the same way.

Are you aware of male violence and the current increase?