SC ruling: I come with flowers!

[VanishingVision]

Excuse the cringe title, I wasn't sure how to title it!

So firstly, hello and I genuinely hope the SC ruling has brought at least some relief to at least most of you.
I'm a transwoman/TIM/transsexual/whatever vernacular you wish to use and I've been a lurker on mumsnet for about a year, primarily because I found myself increasingly at odds with the mainstream trans community over the past couple of years and I was aware mumsnet was a gathering place for GC women and despite some of the content being occasionally very hard to read, I've enjoyed the perspective and found it really useful.
As far as trans inclusion goes I've only been interested in the opinion of women because it undoubtedly affects them more than it does men and typically I've welcomed all sides to be honest with me even if those conversations can be difficult but difficult conversations are truly the way to get to the truth, I think. I guess, my circle has forever always been women anyway so that's likely where that has come from and why I decided to lurk some of the threads on mumsnet in the first place.

As far as the SC ruling, I'm actually kind of indifferent to it at least in how it could affect me personally. I don't see it changing a great deal of my everyday life nor do I feel like I'm excluded from public life (even if I did feel that way, I wouldn't exclude myself anyway out of sheer insolence), I'd rather be measured about it if it gives clarity, puts women at ease and protects their sex based rights because there absolutely ARE places where trans rights have overreached drastically. Stating this has actually caused me grief from other trans people. Despite being pretty far left politically on most subjects, you could consider my views on trans things more aligned with Rose of Dawn.
I'm certainly upset, but not necessarily at the outcome but more by the fact the whole thing has had to become so inflamed and toxic. I do blame TRAs for a huge part of getting us here and I can't ever say I've seen GC women as 'the enemy', despite being sure some would legitimately hate me but hey so do a bunch of other trans people!
I do actually have a shred of positivity towards it and hope it not only enshrines the rights of women going forward but sheds more light on where the overly aggressive trans activism has hurt and failed both women and trans people, in fact.

I have no real goal on posting here, I've no interest in making anyone believe I'm 'one of the good ones' or convincing anyone or changing minds. Neither is it some kind of 'pick me let me into your spaces please' attempt. It's simply a case of I've been perusing the site for some time and the SC ruling has made me want to actually interact and I'm aware this is an absolute 'TERF' fortress and I may not get any kind of response and I don't even expect a particularly welcoming one.
I'm also sorry this is so long! I didn't mean to waffle so much either!

Hope you all have a wonderful Easter weekend 🖤🌹🌺💐

I'm certainly upset, but not necessarily at the outcome but more by the fact the whole thing has had to become so inflamed and toxic

It's a shame. People forget that there are people at both ends of the debate.

From what I understand there are mixed feelings about the ruling. Some don't believe it will make any difference and others think it will be discriminatory.

It will be interesting to see how the rights of women and transwomen are balanced under the EA.

It's so sad how the whole discussion because so toxic and adversarial.

Threatening to 'punch TERFs in the face' or to cut their heads off should have been called out by the TRAs not condoned. Condoning violence only pushed people to more polarised positions.

Not listening to women's voices and dismissing then as trans phobic was a way of shutting down conversations, which further inflamed the situation.

Stonewall and TRAs have torpedoed their own side by stirring up hate rhetoric and labelling women as CIS or TERFs.

Time to reset the conversation now we have legal clarity and hopefully start having meaningful dialogue to protect both sides.

The reactions do seem mixed (not just from the media). It seems (to me anyway) that both 'sides' seem to think the majority agree with them, but it's probably likely that there's a roughly equal amount of people with a strong feeling towards it either way and then a myriad of not that bothered but perhaps lean one way or another slightly. But that's just from looking at my own feeds and having a snout about in general.

I am interested to see what happens next. Honestly it does bring a bit of a relief to myself too (whether I wholly agree or not is irrelevant) because I'd rather everything is clear in law and I can navigate accordingly and I just hope it doesn't get worse.

Sorry I misread your post: yes, there's alot of interpretations of it also which perhaps show there are some areas that are still muddy, perhaps even more so?

I agree. Even as far back as where it really kicked off (JKR's original posts I believe) despite me both agreeing and disagreeing with much of what she's had to say at various times, I feel like there's been alot of fanning the flames of hatred on both places, though I've seen more threats of violence coming from the TRAs.

I've always found it odd how people who are adamant they 'identify as women' won't listen to women and will dismiss fear of assault as transphobic. Threaten the women who fear violence with violence, for sure that's a very intelligent tactic to find peace....

I hope for the same thing!

GC women do not now and never have hated Transpeople purely for existing
The real shame is that GC women COULD have been Trans peoples greatest allies, we fought for our rights, we know how to fight for our rights and we probably could have helped Transpeople fight for theirs too if asked nicely.
Instead we were set up as the enemy and threatened with rape and death. GC women lost jobs and relationships as a result of TRA's targetting them and not everyone had the money or profile of JKR to be able to survive it.
Instead the Trans lobby decided to take us on, and lost. They picked the wrong fight and the wrong enemy.

Surely there is now a vacuum for a reasonable, media savvy palatable trans person to step into, to spear head the crucial need for third spaces/open sports categories or even trans sports categories/third category prisons etc? This is what the movement needs. Your own JKR. You’ve had clarification on the law, you know what the public thinks so now build your own spaces if you don’t want to share them with other men/women (delete as applicable)
I think everyone would get behind this campaign. I’d love to see trans as a badge of pride and solidarity, as proud non conformism with the strictures of the stereotypes associated with your sex, rather than trans > biology so fuck off you TERF cunt.

I do wonder how relevant it is to most people’s daily lives. Trans or not. Most toilets I see these days are unisex. I’m never in hospital, prisons, refuges. I do think these should be dingle sex spaces but I suspect most trans people are similar and or can find workarounds. There are lots of noisy pisstakers who will now, hopefully, be barred from inserting themselves into single sex spaces and services for their jollies.

Most toilets aren't unisex. The doors might go to the floor but the sinks are still in a communal single sex space.

@VanishingVision
Pure curiosity what facilities do you use?

What makes you describe yourself as trans rather than a cross dresser?

The real shame is that GC women COULD have been Trans peoples greatest allies, we fought for our rights, we know how to fight for our rights and we probably could have helped Transpeople fight for theirs too if asked nicely.

I really agree with this part. Typically my biggest supporters have all been women and not even necessarily totally TWAW types either (but perhaps not entirely GC to my knowledge either) and I've counted on their honesty so much but regardless of that r*pe/SA is the most heinous act (something I am familiar with), even just the threat of it so it's no surprise that alone it lost support, quite honestly.

You may not do sport, even do far as using a local swimming pool or gym, but it's not uncommon at all, and it's only a matter of time before the issue arises. If you're involved in running a sports club with basic changing facilities and you would like children and teenagers to be able to participate it's a live issue. That is hopefully not too unimaginable a circumstance.

Great post OP, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I'm trans because I have dysphoria related to my sex and required both a physical and mental need to change my sex as close to the opposite as possible through the use of hormones and surgeries to relieve that dysphoria and severe distress. However, I'm aware it doesn't make me a biological woman it makes me a transsexual. A crossdresser wouldn't do that, they just like wearing clothing that's designed for the opposite sex and likely would enjoy walking around with a pair of hairy balls dangling from a too short mini skirt ordered from amazon.

Before the ruling, yes I used the women's public toilets primarily because the women I was spending most of my time with some time ago pretty much convinced me that's where I should go now ('no, this is where you go now' was their words) and at the time people (strangers included) predominantly referred to me as she (I don't know if thats passing, I can't read minds), so I guessed if people were assuming that to be the case it just seemed logical sense as a matter of just navigating my way around everyday life and causing least confusion and discomfort to other people and myself. I'm sure there's a mixed response to whether that was right or wrong and I'm aware my friends don't speak for every woman.
Prior to that, I'd only use gender neutral spaces or basically hold it in (and get UTIs). I haven't used any other spaces i.e changing and whatnot.

While I get your friends might not mind, and I can see using the ladies makes you more comfortable.

Nobody can speak for all women. And using Womens spaces is voliating other womens rights.

The majority of public toilets double as workplace toilets, (pubs, restaurants gyms etc). Even in big places like football stadiums might not have separate staff toilets.

Absolutely they don't speak for all women, as I've stated. And using them wasn't purely about my own comfortability, but of course that played into it in the end, it was something that seemed perhaps logical to change based on circumstances but I can accept that it was misguided and I hope nobody was made to feel uncomfortable, as I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

I have no issue with how you choose to live your life provided you respect women's boundaries and accept that trans women are a subset of men and are not women.

Hello, and thank you for taking the time to post openly and thoughtfully. You sound like an old-school transsexual in the sense of someone who understands the material reality of sex and the importance of women’s boundaries (and has come to an even better understanding in this exchange). I genuinely have no issue with anyone who takes that position.

thank you for posting... I do agree with sentiments above, that if the TRAs had not violently hijacked the issue, I believe that women and "oldfashioned transsexuals" (for want of a better phrase) would have been natural allies and have come up with some thoughtful proposals... I feel incredibly sad for those groups who have suffered the most from this madness, including lesbians and transsexuals amongst others

I guess you could call me that! Honestly I don't think this exchange has changed that too much I've always thought sex is real and there are needs that are centered around tharlt but I had my own 'peak trans' moment a year ago or so (am I using that phrase correctly?) which is ultimately what brought me here in the first place last year!

I do think it's very sad but necessarily because of the outcome, but mostly because of the relationships, jobs, families and people that were harmed along the way. Traditionally women were always the biggest supporters of gays/lesbians and transsexuals so really we should have been natural allies, but the more deranged TRAs who stoked so much fire both sides sadly hacked that olive branch off!
I do see it as a opportunity though, hopefully. Tbh the media coverage is not helping currently but does the media ever help? 🙄

My son as a teenager began thinking about his gender identity. This was out of the blue as he had never expressed any feeling as a child that he was not a boy despite always having space to express himself however he wanted. I could see that a number of things had happened more recently that to a sensitive teenaged boy could feel quite big, so I felt it was trauma based.

It was the gender critical women in my life who had bravely spoken up over the few years previously so I knew who they were, even if I didn't understand where they were coming from at the time that I knew I could approach for help and a sounding board. They offered my son and me the most compassion while he figured himself out. I will be eternally grateful to them. They certainly didn't hate my son.

So many other be kind women were congratulations you have a daughter now, or just didn't want to know.

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I really hope that your son (I'm going to use your words as I'm not sure what the outcome was, I'm assuming they didn't transition from the sounds of it) is doing really well now and I hope that you are too. And i hope you have a really good relationship!

I'm really glad those women helped you both, that's really wonderful to hear ans that sort of support is so important, you know not just hearing the same old thing repeated. I hope they're doing just fine too!
I feel I can relate as I also have a mother and she of course had her struggles in knowing that her only son was making the choice to transition.
I think the 'be kind' crowd like to say that the transition doesn't effect immediate family, but of course it does. I can't imagine how difficult that could be for a parent, however supportive they are, as I can't ever be one and certain roles like 'son' 'mother' do define the relationship.

I'm hoping it is clear from my post that I've never seen GC women in general as my enemy and I never would. My mother is probably moderately GC I think.

One of the saddest things is the obsessive focus on victimhood- my young trans friend tells me it doesn’t matter about drugs and surgery shortening her life, as trans people often die before they’re 30 anyway.

All the emphasis on suicide, on being targeted, on hate crime when someone misgenders them- when they could be living exciting gender non conforming lives.

Hi OP.

I hope that the Supreme Court decision paves the way for a more grown up conversation about third spaces.

I believe that women should be entitled to single sex spaces (including toilets and changing rooms) and sports, but I don't want trans people to be excluded from society.

Hopefully this sends a strong message that trans rights groups need to go back to the drawing board and come up with some different solutions for trans people which ensure their needs are met without infringing the rights of other groups.

Thanks for the flowers. Here's some wine.🍷