I cannot read the 17,000 comments on the Fife Nurse topic (17 thread, 40 pages each, 25 comments per page) - can anyone tl;dr sum up what's happening in a few bullets?

[SernieBanders]

Please? :)

"Dr Upton is basically a lying cunt whether he is wearing a dress or not."
I think, in the circumstances, that we should emphasise that DrU has no claim to cunthood, lying or otherwise...

It is a wonder to me how an NHS doctor has the time to think so deeply about their own personal identity. I thought they were all horrendously busy and over worked?

He lacks the depth & warmth.

NoBinturongsHereMate
Respondent 1 failure of process claims. Should be a slam dunk.for Peggie. They included all the wrong people, who had no experience, and totally failed to follow process over a ridiculous timeline. Reaction was totally OTT, based on nothing.

I'm also not a lawyer, but agree with this - I worked in HR for a few years, and we were told very clearly that when it comes to disciplinary procedures or redundancies, it is SO important to follow proper procedure.

Even if an employee is in the wrong (which I don't think Peggie is), the company is still obliged to have a proper policy in place, and follow that policy correctly. It's quite clear that NHS Fife didn't do this, so they are up shit creek.

Based on the nurse’s claims against the NHS Fife and the evidence heard so far (more to come in August) it looks like the nurse has a very good case/chance of winning. The NHS didn’t follow their own suspension procedure - which would (unfortunately)be a win on process rather than principle.

But there are policy problems (the Equality Act enforcement organisation EHRC has flagged this week) which may show NHS Fife broke the law regarding female only changing rooms. Hopefully there will be a finding on this part as it’s why so many people are interested!

The nurse also named the Doctor as a respondent in a personal capacity alongside the NHS. This means the Dr might have to pay her financial compensation out of their own pocket if the Tribunal find against the Doctor.

For this personal claim, (in summary) the nurse says that just by being there, the (male bodied/penis owning) Doctor’s presence in female changing room was harassment. The Doctor claimed that the nurse was a transphobe who called them a “man” asked about “chromosomes” and compared them to Isla Bryson (trans woman convicted rapist sent to female prison) - which got the nurse suspended from work and is the reason the nurse brought the Tribunal.

So for this personal claim against the Doctor, it comes down to one person’s word against another. On questioning under oath the Dr’s story started to shift a little - admitting the nurse hadn’t compared him to a rapist. There were also other inconsistencies in the Dr’s story which started to undermine their credibility (IMO). They also made claims about being a biological woman and that sex was nebulous. They came over (again IMO) as not very vulnerable and rather entitled - admitting that there was nothing the nurse could have done that would have kept them happy other than undress quietly/put up shut up sort of thing.

So will the nurse win the personal claim of harassment against the Dr?

Not sure - if the Panel agree with all the NHS policies to date being legal - which favour trans inclusion - then no. But if they agree with Health & Safety Regulations and the EHRC interpretation of the Equality Act then possibly yes.

I’ll be glued to the evidence in July to find out!
(I am biased in favour of female only spaces)

I think there is a very, very high chance of Peggie succeeding in her claim agains NHSFife, at least to some extent. Both because they've fucked up massively procedurally and because their policy failed to provide Peggie with single sex changing (a legal requirement).

But her claim agains Upton personally seems less certain since he was told he was allowed to change in the women's changing room. I have heard that employers can not give employees permission to harass others, so this may carry no weight, but it isn't clear to me that, legally, his presence in the changing room the way he frames it will be found by the tribunal to be enough to prove harassment and we can't know whether the judge sees that from Peggie's perspective or Uptons.

There will also be a separate claim agains a senior doctor (can't remember her name) in the department who sent out an email to all staff after the incident where Peggie asked Upton to leave the changing room, that slated Peggie, pledged support for Upton and prejudged the incident. We haven't had an opportunity to see the details on that yet as there wasn't enough time to get to the senior doctor as a witness. But I suspect, from what even NHSFife have said, that's going to be damning.

What I also think is unclear is whether the tribunal will find Peggie has some responsibility for the comment about prisons to Upton. Or whether the incidents of alleged concern re: patient care will be found completely lacking. I'm not even sure if that's something the tribunal will look into that hard.

Upton behaviour isn't just 'being in the changing room' (for which he might have permission, but that still doesn't necessarily mean he can do it, especially when he is asked to leave but instead stays and argies). It is also the weird note taking and raising apparently spurious grievances - he definitely has no permission for that.

I'm not sure whether they could also consider that his further actions in trying to manufacture incidents could also be considered harassment as he was trying to get her fired imo.

If anything illustrates that he's not a woman (other than his biology), I can't think of any woman upon having been told that they were making people uncomfortable doing something, would double down and keep doing it and shoving it in their face. And I'm a very thrawn cow generally.

A quick summary. Experienced nurse and her family gave evidence in a matter of fact, straightforward way. Dr came across as contrary, playing with words, making speeches when a simple yes or no would have sufficed. Thinks biological sex is nebulous and would provide single sex care unless a patient objected, doesn't believe a man and a woman are needed to create a baby, takes a lot of notes on phone until there's an issue of patient safety because A and E is a busy place ('not like here' about the court room I think were the words used). Tried to dominate the words used in the courtroom leading to an "Oh!" from his barrister. Reported a patient safety incident months after it happened. Can't remember who, when and whether a Snickers was involved or not. Dr acknowledged that if a nurse left a patient's care due to a refusal to work with a colleague, it could end a career, but if a Doctor made a false allegation against a colleague that would probably also end a career. Has 'never been spoken to like that' when confronted by the nurse.

Nurse Manager thinks the suspended nurse was a Trump fan because she stayed in a Trump hotel once, and doesn't think there's differences between men and women's health checks in hospitals.

Less flippantly, NHS Fife have dealt with the procedural elements of the case disgracefully in almost every way imaginable. From the initial request from Nurse Peggie to ask whether a transwoman can use the female changing space, to having no EQIA, to suspending without HR involvement, to not checking the legal position of the response by the DEI colleague, to a consultant emailing 17 other staff about the incident that had not been investigated to suspending at a meeting at short notice, to trying to hold a disciplinary outcome meeting while the tribunal was still ongoing, to trusting the complaint of a doctor versus a nurse with no investigation, to having an investigation then deciding it wasn't an investigation, to holding another investigation when the first investigating manager wasn't sure whether it was an investigation or not, to getting the nurse back on the basis of changing her shifts and her place of work..........it's an endless list. Take away any gender issues from this, and it's a monumental exercise in how to screw up every single step of the process. For that alone, they should be very heftily punished. And that's before you consider the failure to provide dedicated female changing spaces.

Can anyone tell me of there is an update on SP’s team accessing Uptons phone or KS being added as a 3rd respondent? I remember vaguely there was some sort of court date in March, possibly related to these points.

I was wondering this.. There was a discussion about 24-26 March but I think that was just a free space the judge had. I checked the Tribunal Tweets for the last day of the hearing just gone. The legal teams and judge seem to have agreed to meet on 15th April to agree the arrangements. So we probably won't hear until after that. Can't wait to find out....

Hi all!

I am watching all of this from Australia. My reading is...

Against NHS Fife:

1. It created a policy and a practice which allowed Upton, who had no GRC and so for the purposes of UK law is a Male, into a single sex change room. In practice, this action turned the women's change room into a mixed sex change room. As the Equality Act 2010 requires an employer such as a hospital to provide both men and women with their own single sex change rooms, this is likely illegal.
2. NHS Fife failed to conduct a legally required equality impact assessment for the policy. Likely illegal.
3. The investigation of allegations against Peggy was wildly incompetent and she was not given due process; her punishment was likely demonstratively harsher than reasonable. Which also leads into...
4. Under Whistleblower protections, an employer cannot punish someone for pointing out illegal behaviour. If it can be shown Peggie was unduly punished for pointing out Upton use of the Women's change room was illegal, her punishment was likely not only excessive but also illegal victimisation.
5. Victimisation of Peggy for her protected belief, likely illegal.

Against Upton, (and the other doctor):

1. Indirect sexual harassment: on the face of it, Upton acted illegally by being in the change rooms, however the Judge will consider fairness, and Upton was following workplace policy. Not sure on that one..
2. Victimisation / Belief harassment ; if it can be shown Upton and the other doctor created vexatious and/ or false complaints and allegations and spread malicious workplace rumours (ie the 'Hate Crime' stuff, the 'abandoning' patient stuff) against Peggy in order to punish her and ruin her career, then that's likely illegal.

As for Peggy:

Peggy conceded that under NHS policy, she did harass Upton by misgendering him. What that will mean in the case, I don't know - but even if it stands, her punishment seems comparatively excessive.

Of course I could be wrong about everything! But I think this case is not going to go Upton & Fife's way.

Small amendment to your first point: "As the Equality Act 2010 requires an employer such as a hospital to provide both men and women with their own single sex change rooms". It's the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992.

That's legally important because it was in existence before both the GRA and the EQA, and neither of them amended it - which they would need to if the provisions of the later regulations were to override the earlier ones.

Oh, yes, of course! Thanks

My impression - and I maybe wrong, but I thought Upton started using the women's CR, and only when there was some pushback he then sought permission to use them.

Interesting...

Yes that’s broadly what happened

So that's much worse then. Hah.