Swyer syndrome - GC

[Mt563]

If you say that xy = male, would you apply that to someone Swyer syndrome? They don't have male organs and go through female puberty once on hormones and consider themselves female and present as female but have xy hormones.

No because that would be cruel they can decide what they identify most as

so, as a gender critical person, where do you draw the line? obviously you don't consider it cruel to say a transperson can decide what they identify most. what about someone who was raised female until they were a teenager then went through male puberty? plenty of people on here think that's fine but I think it's so cruel.

I really don’t think that Mumsnet is an appropriate forum for trying to make gotchas around what is an extremely rare, complex disorder. Swyers syndrome is about as complex a DSD as you can get, and anyone who is born with this DSD already will have a tough enough time without being gossiped about.

Women affected by this have female external genitalia and some female internal reproductive structures. They don’t have testicles which will produce male hormones. They won’t have an advantage in sports. They don’t have penises. They won’t grow to be male sized.

This is exactly right.

Leave people with DSDs alone. The only context in which it even begins to be appropriate to drag these difficult disorders into public discussion is in relation to individuals whose eligibility for a sporting event is legitimately being contested.
I have no idea whether this particularly rare DSD has been the focus of such a case, but even if it has, the relevance of discussing it would be confined to that case. We can and do routinely define biological categories without reference to hard cases.

XY with no DSD is male. XY with Swyer’s is considered female, because of the presence of an almost complete female body and absence of any male sexual characteristics. HTH.

There’s a whole thread on here from a few days ago with a lovely OP who has Swyer’s, if you’re genuinely interested.

I draw the line at men trying to exploit differences of sexual development that they don't have as some kind of gotcha.

And I have no issues with people with 5-ards being recognised as female if that's what feels right for them as long as they don't exploit loopholes to take part in female sport.

5-ards is very rare and many boys with it identify as male at puberty. Those that don't generally have their testicles removed.

i have read several threads in various places by people with Swyers. I was curious about the GC take on it, so thanks for all your insights.

You know what, life is cruel a lot of the time. It's cruel that some people can't see. It's cruel that some people can't walk. It's cruel that some people will never find love. It's cruel that some people's parents will die young. It's cruel that some kids never grow up.

And yes, it's cruel that some people are intersex and that things might not be as clear cut for then when it comes to their sex. It sucks if you can't compete internationally in a sport as your preferred sex because of something like a DSD, but many other people with disabilities can't compete because of the impact of that disability.

The existence of complicated disorders like Swyers isn't a gotcha for the infiltration of men into women's spaces. People with complex DSDs should be given a lot of support, but they aren't trans and its offensive to correlate the two.

They've gone through female puberty. It's the ones who've gone through male puberty which are a problem.

Pretty simple really.

There’s no GC “take” on Swyer’s. Swyer’s is a DSD and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gender ideology or being “gender critical”.

Other DSDs are being used to shoehorn people who have gone through a male puberty into women’s sports - whether they have a DSD (like Caster Semenya) or are plain old XY with ladyfeelz.

In the case of males with 46 5-ARD (like CS) a great deal of sympathy is owed, especially if they had no idea they were male until puberty. But once they have had a male puberty they have no place in women’s sports.

@TENSsion They won’t grow to be male sized.

Sorry, what exactly is "male-sized"? The last time I checked, size follows a normal curve, and both men and women come in lots of different shapes and sizes.

I really don't get this obsession over men's physical size and build. Some women on mumsnet talk as if every man is massive and taller than 6 foot (note: only about 20% of men are taller than 6 foot).

If you find a man and a woman who are the exact same weight and height the man will have 60% higher upper body strength.
The average woman is 5 foot 4, the average man is 5 foot 9 in the UK.
Most men are bigger than most women and even when they are the same size and weight, men are much stronger and faster.
This physical advantage makes women particularly vulnerable to male violence and gives men an unfair advantage at sports.

Happy to explain, @shuggles

Size follows a normal distribution curve, but if you plot the curve for women and men separately on the same graph, the women’s curve is further to the y-axis than the men’s. This is a fact and it’s disingenuous to say otherwise.

This.

You mean to say the women's curve is shifted down on the x axis relative to men.

Regardless, you agree then that a noticeable minority of men have a smaller build, and a noticeable minority of women are huge, right?

I don't know if I am a gender critical person sorry I didn't realise this was in the gender critical bit

DH and I are the same height and weight, he's shorter than average with a very slim build but I don't come close to his strength and when we go running together, he either has to slow right down to my pace or zips off. It's about natural male strength.

People with Sywers are female (except chromosomally) imho. DSDs are complicated. In this case no male puberty so no problems in sports etc.

Are you GC yourself OP?
GC people just want fairness.
It seems like you might be wanting to catch people out?

Swyers is a DSD and has nothing to do with gender. So being GC has no bearing on how I see people with Swyers. It's like asking me how I view people with hyperthyroidism as a GC woman.

The boxers had DSDs and that was mostly seen as unfair so I do think OP has a point. I think people who are GC would generally think that anyone who has been through male puberty - whether they’re trans or have a DSD - should not be in women’s sport etc.

Did you think the boxers fairly won gold @HaddyAbrams?

No, but they have a different DSD that means they went through male puberty. So not the same.

Yes, quite. It's 'cruel' (i.e. just bad luck) that my health condition means that I can't compete in the sport I love, but I'm not campaigning to insert myself into junior levels just so I've a chance at winning something.

I've had to build my life around something else instead. It's not as if I have had my ability to do it at an amateur level completely destroyed.