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Feminism: chat

V interesting podcast on BDSM - Was I in a Cult?

14 replies

AliasGrace47 · 01/12/2024 00:14

I came across this in the antikink subreddit. It's pretty long but def worth a listen. The woman interviewed (who was too intimidated to give her real name) spoke v frankly & disturbingly about her life in the UK BDSM scene. She was explicit about the paedophilia common in the age play community, the trauma bonding and highs that cause so called subspace & top drop, & the fact that a lot of the women are young & insecure w abusive backgrounds, & that people w frequent consent violations are not punished.
A telling detail is that apparently in porn videos shot in the community, the women, whether dom or sub, always have their faces shown, but the men don't. Also, she said concepts like age play were really rare in the kink community before but over the past decade have become really common, & scarily were seen by some as a potential treatment for paedophilia.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=open.spotify.com/episode/7wZBTMvqPLRDfQdby4XPnz&ved=2ahUKEwjC86adpYWKAxV4bEEAHcLDG2UQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3SyQvEyo7INvHCtgBinjKM

OP posts:
username247 · 01/12/2024 00:41

By paedophilia, do you mean actual children were involved? Was she forced into this community or did she choose to participate?

AliasGrace47 · 01/12/2024 01:14

username, no, it wasn't depraved to that level. But paedophiles were using age play to manage their attractions(so-called 'dark ageplay' where pretended csa is enacted w an adult partner ) Could it not make it worse? And hasn't ageplay been a thing at Pride in recent years?

Fwiw, I had a look at the Virtuous Pedophiles website recently bc I heard about it in an article trying to normalise the MAP term. In the FAQs, Pedophiles mentioned being involved in ageplay, & said there was a definite link between ageplay & pedophilia, but that the community try & downplay it as it's obvs 'bad for their image.'

No, she wasn't forced into it. The podcast mostly interviews people who were in cults, but also people who were in situations w heavily cultic elements, but not actual cults. She said she had had a poor relationship w her father (unclear if abusive) and this drove her to become sadistically dominant. She said most of the men in it, both subs and doms, had had mothers who were either neglectful or abusive.

She was also v critical of CNC, saying that women who took part often were reenacting abuse. Apparently many of the people are neurodiverse & their black & white thinking makes them vulnerable, esp as their only friends will often be fellow BDSM practioners.

OP posts:
username247 · 01/12/2024 01:34

TG! I just don't want to know about people who collude in abuse. I'm sick to death of it.

I'm wary about judging consenting adults where abuse is not involved. You can't consent to abuse.

I know that the BDSM community attracts predators but then again predators seem to be everywhere.

It's very easy to be sucked into these situations. I see gender ideology, where people seem to have lost touch with reality, as a cult. The internet makes it very easy to indoctrinate people. I find the manosphere very disturbing.

There was an article today about how TikTok is renowned for encouraging eating disorders. I also see the overt sexualisation of girls and women as cult like.

There's definitely a discussion to be had about being an adult and personal responsibility. I've never been interested in anything to do with kinks and fetishes so have never had anything to do with the scene.

I was just reading an article about BDSM on the back of this thread and it was talking about women being groomed into anal and oral sex. Are all women who enjoy these activities victims?

I really don't like this 'feminist' narrative of women as passive victims.

Fruityful · 01/12/2024 02:27

BDSM had something of a PR job done on it in the 90's. Suddenly everyone was talking about how consensual the whole scene was, you had films like Preaching to the Perverted which showed the whole scene as innocent hedonists unfairly blamed by moral crusaders and were shown as very self-policing to make sure everybody involved was consenting. Consent, consent, consent. If you say it often enough it becomes true.

My dalliances with such circles, well - yes, there's a whole party layer where it was just a fun club night sort of excuse to be a bit raunchy by people who aren't really that invested in it. And you can say that there's low enough pressure there that it's mostly consensual. But I think the portrayal of the scene as all consenting adults is rather sanitised. In fact, I think it's rather parallel to the trans portrayals some years ago where it's all very acceptable and cool to be into it and never mind any dark side - that's buried or is cast as"no true Scotsman BDSM'er"

But though I'm big on personal responsibility, even I find some of the "consent" to be dubious. Vulnerable people can say "yes" to things they really don't want. More confusingly, people often don't really understand what they want and let others guide them in that. I personally believe that until you're in your mid-twenties you very often don't even have clearly defined boundaries and desires. You're still deciding if you want something or not, quite often.

"Age play" is a major red flag. Paedophiles are not (so far as I understand it) attracted to children because of the physical form so much as the power dynamic, the loss of innocence and other very dark drives. There was an AMA on Reddit some years back where a person pushing the "MAP" angle, portraying it as a 'just wired to find this attractive, it's like being homosexual' sort of thing initially got a bunch of sympathy from others there. Only over the course of questioning with things like "if a fully adult person looked like a child would you still find them attractive" and answers of "no," did the redditors start to understand that it was the preying on someone, the vulnerability, that drove him.

Something which I'm sure most here already know but it was news to them. The relevance of all this being that "Age Play" is someone trying to satisfy that same dynamic. So to my mind it's the most obvious thing in the world that it links to and bluntly segues into, actual paedophilia. Because it IS paedophilia - the essential root of it.

I was never really into BDSM. I was only into it in so far as it was sex. Give me an attractive and fun partner in any other context and I was as happy. But I ran into the people who need it, for whom it's not just sex with tight costumes or some role-play, but something they require for its own sake. I'm older now and I look back it with more reservation than I did at the time. It's not a red flag by itself for me. But it is a flag. And "Age Play" is a big warning sign.

Oh, slight tangent, but about the "showing women's faces and not the men's"..The text seems to be suggesting that this is a power dynamic thing. I'd say it's just market demand. Most porn shows the women's faces and not men's because the largest consumers of porn are men. And I'd bet the locally made stuff is intended primarily to be shared with other men, too. Men want to see women's faces and they want men in the video to be anonymised and rendered just to objects without bringing in any personality, because that's distracting to other men. For all that Feminism declares porn objectifies women, porn consumers often want the woman to feel real as possible to them - especially with abusive porn where the emotional reaction is what the consumer is really getting off on - whilst men are minimised as much as possible to just the stimulus provider. Men don't want to see other men's o-face, basically. Other than that, I agree with most of what was written.

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 13:07

Fruityful · 01/12/2024 02:27

BDSM had something of a PR job done on it in the 90's. Suddenly everyone was talking about how consensual the whole scene was, you had films like Preaching to the Perverted which showed the whole scene as innocent hedonists unfairly blamed by moral crusaders and were shown as very self-policing to make sure everybody involved was consenting. Consent, consent, consent. If you say it often enough it becomes true.

My dalliances with such circles, well - yes, there's a whole party layer where it was just a fun club night sort of excuse to be a bit raunchy by people who aren't really that invested in it. And you can say that there's low enough pressure there that it's mostly consensual. But I think the portrayal of the scene as all consenting adults is rather sanitised. In fact, I think it's rather parallel to the trans portrayals some years ago where it's all very acceptable and cool to be into it and never mind any dark side - that's buried or is cast as"no true Scotsman BDSM'er"

But though I'm big on personal responsibility, even I find some of the "consent" to be dubious. Vulnerable people can say "yes" to things they really don't want. More confusingly, people often don't really understand what they want and let others guide them in that. I personally believe that until you're in your mid-twenties you very often don't even have clearly defined boundaries and desires. You're still deciding if you want something or not, quite often.

"Age play" is a major red flag. Paedophiles are not (so far as I understand it) attracted to children because of the physical form so much as the power dynamic, the loss of innocence and other very dark drives. There was an AMA on Reddit some years back where a person pushing the "MAP" angle, portraying it as a 'just wired to find this attractive, it's like being homosexual' sort of thing initially got a bunch of sympathy from others there. Only over the course of questioning with things like "if a fully adult person looked like a child would you still find them attractive" and answers of "no," did the redditors start to understand that it was the preying on someone, the vulnerability, that drove him.

Something which I'm sure most here already know but it was news to them. The relevance of all this being that "Age Play" is someone trying to satisfy that same dynamic. So to my mind it's the most obvious thing in the world that it links to and bluntly segues into, actual paedophilia. Because it IS paedophilia - the essential root of it.

I was never really into BDSM. I was only into it in so far as it was sex. Give me an attractive and fun partner in any other context and I was as happy. But I ran into the people who need it, for whom it's not just sex with tight costumes or some role-play, but something they require for its own sake. I'm older now and I look back it with more reservation than I did at the time. It's not a red flag by itself for me. But it is a flag. And "Age Play" is a big warning sign.

Oh, slight tangent, but about the "showing women's faces and not the men's"..The text seems to be suggesting that this is a power dynamic thing. I'd say it's just market demand. Most porn shows the women's faces and not men's because the largest consumers of porn are men. And I'd bet the locally made stuff is intended primarily to be shared with other men, too. Men want to see women's faces and they want men in the video to be anonymised and rendered just to objects without bringing in any personality, because that's distracting to other men. For all that Feminism declares porn objectifies women, porn consumers often want the woman to feel real as possible to them - especially with abusive porn where the emotional reaction is what the consumer is really getting off on - whilst men are minimised as much as possible to just the stimulus provider. Men don't want to see other men's o-face, basically. Other than that, I agree with most of what was written.

Interesting that the market kinda squashes out the power dynamic. To my thinking, market logic is hierarchical logic, it's extractive, not expansive. In the cast the guest talks about the thin model of consent used in kink as essentially being a transaction market based one. If anything I think the market element reveals the hypocrisy of kink. The men are masked as they have real lives they need to protect. The women, well fuck their future, they're just whores and made their choices (intentionally a brutal framing).

I know from my time in the scene a few women who did shadow slaves porn. That stuff is bloody awful. It's just torture of women. A lot of the femdom porn is more humiliation focused and less pain based. Unless the pain is focused on the cock and balls. But yeah, that was another contrast for me. How straight up cruel it was when the woman was the sub.

If you've the stomach for it, have a look and see for yourself. Even when I was deep into the scene, I hated BDSM porn. Telling myself it was about the moment created in the act. Hiding from myself they what I was doing was objectively. Vile.

Fruityful · 01/12/2024 22:01

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 13:07

Interesting that the market kinda squashes out the power dynamic. To my thinking, market logic is hierarchical logic, it's extractive, not expansive. In the cast the guest talks about the thin model of consent used in kink as essentially being a transaction market based one. If anything I think the market element reveals the hypocrisy of kink. The men are masked as they have real lives they need to protect. The women, well fuck their future, they're just whores and made their choices (intentionally a brutal framing).

I know from my time in the scene a few women who did shadow slaves porn. That stuff is bloody awful. It's just torture of women. A lot of the femdom porn is more humiliation focused and less pain based. Unless the pain is focused on the cock and balls. But yeah, that was another contrast for me. How straight up cruel it was when the woman was the sub.

If you've the stomach for it, have a look and see for yourself. Even when I was deep into the scene, I hated BDSM porn. Telling myself it was about the moment created in the act. Hiding from myself they what I was doing was objectively. Vile.

I'm afraid I don't have the stomach for it. Well I could but I know what's out there so I don't need to distress myself further to be convinced. And you were obviously far more immersed in this world than I was. My point about the face showing in porn is that there are reasons for it independent of any power dynamic. I could probably name a dozen porn stars if I properly thought about it. And all of them would be women. I might be able to recall the name of a male porn star if I really put my mind to it - maybe. The consumers of porn are overwhelmingly male (like this is news to anybody!). But honestly I think even female viewers of porn are more usually focused on the woman. As I said, I'm just picking out this one part of the article I think misses the mark. I'm not disputing the factors you list but the simple fact is that almost nobody who watches porn wants to see the man's face.

AliasGrace47 · 02/12/2024 00:31

Sorry, I hadn't realised there was already a thread. Probs better to keep discussion yo that one, but I'll post a little more here for now.

Fruityful, I get the market demand motive. This is still a bad power dynamic though if a lot of the women doing the porn, as the podcast implied, are vulnerable & in coercive relationships, esp as these videos are often v graphic & would probs affect job opportunities if a person were trying to leave a coercive relationship. The fact that the porn is mostly made for men is telling- the scene may present itself as equal opportunities, but -by nature perhaps?- the men seem to hold most of the power. I do think that generally, by nature, will be more likely to be hardcore participants, & women to be more likely to be extremely into it due to abuse.

OP posts:
username247 · 02/12/2024 00:46

If you're talking about women being coerced into doing porn or being pressured to do things they don't want, then they're in abusive relationships.

They are videos of exploited and raped women and those women are being horrifically abused.

I'm wondering why this woman chose to stay in such an environment.

AliasGrace47 · 02/12/2024 01:08

username247 · 02/12/2024 00:46

If you're talking about women being coerced into doing porn or being pressured to do things they don't want, then they're in abusive relationships.

They are videos of exploited and raped women and those women are being horrifically abused.

I'm wondering why this woman chose to stay in such an environment.

She said she thought she could organise events ethically, but the ageplay, CNC, consent violations & abusive relationships drove her to leave. She had been involved w swinging in her early 20s & then got into BDSM through that. It seems that her life became enmeshed w the scene, & the presenters, both cult survivors, recognised many tactics : a promise (of sexual liberation), in-group jargon to mask moral violations (ageplay, etc - BTW the word 'play' is v icky & seems to have obvs paedo overtones to me), an us vs them mentality (denigrating of the 'Vanillas' who will 'never understand', refusal to hold predators accountable to the police, repetition of rote phrases like 'safe, safe & consensual' to mask that a lot was anything but, & total shunning of those who spoke up.
I know it's hard to see why she stayed from the outside. But to me it seemed she exchanged an abusive childhood for an exploitative scene, which, though not strictly speaking a cult, was v similar to one in significant ways.

OP posts:
username247 · 02/12/2024 01:33

AliasGrace47 · 02/12/2024 01:08

She said she thought she could organise events ethically, but the ageplay, CNC, consent violations & abusive relationships drove her to leave. She had been involved w swinging in her early 20s & then got into BDSM through that. It seems that her life became enmeshed w the scene, & the presenters, both cult survivors, recognised many tactics : a promise (of sexual liberation), in-group jargon to mask moral violations (ageplay, etc - BTW the word 'play' is v icky & seems to have obvs paedo overtones to me), an us vs them mentality (denigrating of the 'Vanillas' who will 'never understand', refusal to hold predators accountable to the police, repetition of rote phrases like 'safe, safe & consensual' to mask that a lot was anything but, & total shunning of those who spoke up.
I know it's hard to see why she stayed from the outside. But to me it seemed she exchanged an abusive childhood for an exploitative scene, which, though not strictly speaking a cult, was v similar to one in significant ways.

Edited

The problem here is one I brought up earlier, she's accountable for her behaviour and she chose to get involved.

The members of the Manson Family who murdered people were held accountable for their actions and went to prison. They were completely brainwashed yet still responsible for their behaviour.

You don't just fall into the BDSM scene, it's pretty exclusive. Like you said, they look down on 'vanillas'.

There's a very big difference between consenting to sexual activity and being abused.

BDSM encompasses everything from a light spanking to suffocation and for those really involved it's a 24/7 activity. Not everyone involved is being abused and not every woman who makes porn is being exploited.

Xenomorphs · 02/12/2024 01:50

I guess it does not help when the biggest book series written by a woman, ergo 50 shades of grey

Xenomorphs · 02/12/2024 01:51

username247 · 02/12/2024 01:33

The problem here is one I brought up earlier, she's accountable for her behaviour and she chose to get involved.

The members of the Manson Family who murdered people were held accountable for their actions and went to prison. They were completely brainwashed yet still responsible for their behaviour.

You don't just fall into the BDSM scene, it's pretty exclusive. Like you said, they look down on 'vanillas'.

There's a very big difference between consenting to sexual activity and being abused.

BDSM encompasses everything from a light spanking to suffocation and for those really involved it's a 24/7 activity. Not everyone involved is being abused and not every woman who makes porn is being exploited.

And your last sentence is where the majority of society have difficulty understanding that point based on previous threads

username247 · 02/12/2024 03:26

Xenomorphs · 02/12/2024 01:51

And your last sentence is where the majority of society have difficulty understanding that point based on previous threads

Edited

People have a problem with women having agency.

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