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Feminism: chat

"Boys' poor mental health stems from feminism."

343 replies

Whattheduckery · 02/09/2024 11:00

Just been in a training session at my school and this is what the trainer has said. She followed with "because they don't have a club to be part of..."

It's made me so mad.

OP posts:
MtClair · 04/09/2024 11:54

Is it reasonable to define a demographic by the actions of less than 1% of that demographic?

@Galadriell the problem is that number of men who are hitting/killing/taping/sexually assaulting/abusing women isn’t 1%

So the answer to your question is no.
But that’s not the situation we are talking about.
Not when 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence.
not when 1 in 6 children have been sexually abused
Not when 1 in 3 women are victim of sexual violence.

Yes it might be that those men are repeated offenders. But there is no way a very big number, much higher than anyone wants to acknowledge, are hitting/raping/killing/abusing women.

Plus if you look at the % of killers or rapist, more than 80% of them are men.
Men are the ones who are violent.
Genetics and testosterone isn’t it? And a big layer of societal acceptance.

bundevac · 04/09/2024 13:31

Mirabai · 03/09/2024 23:36

2 women a week murdered by a partner or expartner is hardly uncommon is it?

Only a man would think the human race couldn’t have endured without violence. Violence has destroyed civilisations and could ultimately destroy the planet.

Edited

2 women a week murdered by a partner or expartner is hardly uncommon is it?

depends on the size of the population really. in the city of 10000 people? yes. in the country of 60+ million? not very common.

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 13:45

bundevac · 04/09/2024 13:31

2 women a week murdered by a partner or expartner is hardly uncommon is it?

depends on the size of the population really. in the city of 10000 people? yes. in the country of 60+ million? not very common.

Something that happens biweekly cannot be said to be uncommon by any stretch of the imagination. Once every few years would be an uncommon event.

bundevac · 04/09/2024 14:03

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 13:45

Something that happens biweekly cannot be said to be uncommon by any stretch of the imagination. Once every few years would be an uncommon event.

sorry, that doesn't make any sense.
even if there was 1 case every year in 50 million that would be 1000 cases in 5 billion or 1 case per year in 5 million. the size of the observed population must be taken into account.

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 14:26

bundevac · 04/09/2024 14:03

sorry, that doesn't make any sense.
even if there was 1 case every year in 50 million that would be 1000 cases in 5 billion or 1 case per year in 5 million. the size of the observed population must be taken into account.

The observed population is 60 million, we’ve established that. And the data is national not regional.

Nonetheless - 2 murders a week at national level is still not uncommon. There around 5-600 murders a year for the whole country so domestic killings make around 20% of all murders.

The question is what is the agenda behind trying to minimise the issue of the murder of women and deny its prevalence.

username44416 · 04/09/2024 14:54

"There is a problem with male violence."

"Look! A squirrel."

Lavender14 · 04/09/2024 16:47

Mirabai · 03/09/2024 23:40

Domestic violence is not vanishingly rare. 1 in 4 women have experienced da, - 25% of the population.

The problem with these statistics in comparison to the "few" men who harm women is the vast gaping difference between the numbers of men who harm women and the number of men convicted of harming women. 1% of rape cases end in conviction. So it might look like very few men are engaging in physically harming women, but actually a huge number are getting away with it. That's not even taking into account the amount of unreported violence against women, the number of cases where women themselves haven't been informed enough on their rights re: consent or who are aware of how invasive the process is, the fact they can be investigated by police for making a "false" allegation if their case is not upheld who decide not to bother putting themselves through the further trauma of making a report.

Lavender14 · 04/09/2024 16:49

bundevac · 04/09/2024 13:31

2 women a week murdered by a partner or expartner is hardly uncommon is it?

depends on the size of the population really. in the city of 10000 people? yes. in the country of 60+ million? not very common.

2 women a week murdered but 1 in 3 women are abused. That ONLY includes police call outs which is one every 21 seconds in the part of the UK I live in. Many of those women live in very real fear that they may be murdered and most murders happen when a woman is preparing to escape. So actually it's incredibly common.

NPET · 04/09/2024 16:57

I think she's just voicing her own inadequacies.

quantumbutterfly · 04/09/2024 18:10

Lavender14 · 04/09/2024 16:49

2 women a week murdered but 1 in 3 women are abused. That ONLY includes police call outs which is one every 21 seconds in the part of the UK I live in. Many of those women live in very real fear that they may be murdered and most murders happen when a woman is preparing to escape. So actually it's incredibly common.

I personally know of 3 women murdered by their husbands.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 18:47

Interesting, an academic who considers feminists one homogeneous mass or hive mind.

Surely this and the similar comments by other posters is a bit rich when you're actively trying to lump all men together. Reducing all male violence down to the extent that a white accountant from Kensington is culpable for Islamic terrorism in Iran because it's all 'male violence'.

What if we zoom out a bit more and label it 'human violence'? This is factually correct as it's not kangaroos perpetrating it.

As a fellow human are you prepared to accept responsibility for human violence, including that perpetrated by male humans?

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 18:53

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 18:47

Interesting, an academic who considers feminists one homogeneous mass or hive mind.

Surely this and the similar comments by other posters is a bit rich when you're actively trying to lump all men together. Reducing all male violence down to the extent that a white accountant from Kensington is culpable for Islamic terrorism in Iran because it's all 'male violence'.

What if we zoom out a bit more and label it 'human violence'? This is factually correct as it's not kangaroos perpetrating it.

As a fellow human are you prepared to accept responsibility for human violence, including that perpetrated by male humans?

Edited

No-one has said men think the same, even that they are all violent; simply that men collectively have to take responsibility for the violent few.

username44416 · 04/09/2024 18:56

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 18:47

Interesting, an academic who considers feminists one homogeneous mass or hive mind.

Surely this and the similar comments by other posters is a bit rich when you're actively trying to lump all men together. Reducing all male violence down to the extent that a white accountant from Kensington is culpable for Islamic terrorism in Iran because it's all 'male violence'.

What if we zoom out a bit more and label it 'human violence'? This is factually correct as it's not kangaroos perpetrating it.

As a fellow human are you prepared to accept responsibility for human violence, including that perpetrated by male humans?

Edited

So to be clear, what you're saying is that it's wrong to talk about male violence because violent men are from different cultures and socio-economic backgrounds?

We're talking about VAWAG on the thread and the common denominator is misogyny regardless of background or socioeconomic status.

littleburn · 04/09/2024 18:59

The whole world is a boys club.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 19:10

MtClair · 04/09/2024 11:54

Is it reasonable to define a demographic by the actions of less than 1% of that demographic?

@Galadriell the problem is that number of men who are hitting/killing/taping/sexually assaulting/abusing women isn’t 1%

So the answer to your question is no.
But that’s not the situation we are talking about.
Not when 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence.
not when 1 in 6 children have been sexually abused
Not when 1 in 3 women are victim of sexual violence.

Yes it might be that those men are repeated offenders. But there is no way a very big number, much higher than anyone wants to acknowledge, are hitting/raping/killing/abusing women.

Plus if you look at the % of killers or rapist, more than 80% of them are men.
Men are the ones who are violent.
Genetics and testosterone isn’t it? And a big layer of societal acceptance.

Edited

But the vast majority of studies show that women commit at least as much DV as men, and in some areas more. The biggest DV study to date was a meta study of 1700 peer reviewed studies, conducted by DV experts from around the world, and it concluded that women perpetrate more DV.

It's only crime stats that overwhelmingly show women to be the main victims of DV, and all the charities (Mankind etc) state that there's a big problem with men being reluctant to report - e.g. the majority of callers state they wouldn't have reported the DV if it wasn't anonymous.

It's not dissimilar to the low number of rape convictions/reports. Women know they probably won't get a conviction, just like men know they probably won't get any support as the services are mainly aimed at women and feminists fight to have men excluded (often for good reason but still meaning that in the absence of men's shelters they're pretty screwed).

Interestingly, recent studies have found that you get a higher number of female abusers if you ask women whether they've ever punched their partner than if you ask the men if they've ever been punched. This supports the charities' claim that men are ashamed to report DV by a woman.

I saw a documentary years ago where a man described how he'd called his local council to be told there weren't any appropriate services and there wasn't anything they could do to help him. You'd think 15 years later things would be better but they seemingly aren't. A poster from another thread who works in that area recently explained that they often have to tell men to try and find a sofa to sleep on - if they can't then they're just shit outta luck. This thread was only a week or two ago.

It's not hard to see why 85% of homeless people are male and why 'relationship breakdown' is given as the main factor.

I can produce studies to back up all my claims but I'll only do so if asked as on the other threads where I first saw them posted people just grey rocked them after pestering for ages for them to be posted. These people clearly weren't as interested in trying to ascertain the truth as they were in 'winning the argument'.

I'll happily swallow my pride if I read data that genuinely contradicts what I previously believed but I've read so much around this area and just don't believe women are saints. Most of the women that argue with me haven't even read all the data!

In fact, if we were able to kill men with a single punch like they can us, I genuinely believe we'd probs see at least two men killed weekly. I base this claim on the fact that several studies have found that the majority of non-reciprocal and 'single blow' violence is perpetrated by women (around 70% seems to be the usual figure). And that's without taking testosterone and genetic tendencies towards violence into account.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 19:15

username44416 · 04/09/2024 18:56

So to be clear, what you're saying is that it's wrong to talk about male violence because violent men are from different cultures and socio-economic backgrounds?

We're talking about VAWAG on the thread and the common denominator is misogyny regardless of background or socioeconomic status.

I've already explained this in exhaustive detail. Possibly twice.

By trying to generalise specific types of violent crime (e.g. honour killings) into generic 'male violence' you actively reduce the ability to adopt the nuanced approach these problems need.

That's the short version.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 19:25

Given that we have at least 50 years worth of comprehensive DV studies, I find it almost inexcusable that the vast majority of feminists I speak with haven't read them.

I just don't believe many argue in good faith tbh - they're either not interested in the truth or they're entirely closed minded. The last time I saw the studies posted here, posters were complaining because of a link to Wikipedia - a 'site run by MRAs'. 😂

If you can get past the ludicrous claim that Wiki is 'run by MRAs' then the fact still remains that the links were genuine links to genuine studies

SilenceInside · 04/09/2024 19:45

@Whattheduckery just wondering if you got any response from the woman giving the training, or from anyone else?

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 20:02

OK, I finally found the original thread with all the studies I mentioned.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 20:04

The theory that women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly similar rates as men has been termed "gender symmetry". The earliest empirical evidence of gender symmetry was presented in the 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of intimate partner violence in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" intimate partner violence.

Since 1975, numerous other empirical studies have found evidence of gender symmetry in intimate partner violence. For example, in the United States, the National Comorbidity Study of 1990-1992 found 18.4% of men and 17.4% of women had experienced minor intimate partner violence, and 5.5% of men and 6.5% of women had experienced severe intimate partner violence.[48][49]

In England and Wales, the 1995 "Home Office Research Study 191" found that in the twelve months prior to the survey, 4.2% of both men and woman between the ages of 16 and 59 had been assaulted by an intimate.[50]

The Canadian General Social Survey of 2000 found that from 1994 to 1999, 4% of men and 4% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 22% of men and 28% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 7% of men and 8% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[35]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data.[52]

The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional.[53]

A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

In 1997, Philip W. Cook conducted a study of 55,000 members of the United States Armed Forces, finding bidirectionality in 60-64% of intimate partner violence cases, as reported by both men and women.[55]

The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of intimate partner violence cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. When data provided by men only was analyzed, 46.9% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 53.1% as non-reciprocal. When data provided by women only was analyzed, 51.3% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 49.7% as non-reciprocal. The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women).[56]

The 2006 thirty-two nation International Dating Violence Study "revealed an overwhelming body of evidence that bidirectional violence is the predominant pattern of perpetration; and this ... indicates that the etiology of ipv is mostly parallel for men and women". The survey found for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

From 2010 to 2012, scholars of domestic violence from the U.S., Canada and the U.K. assembled The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge, a research database covering 1700 peer-reviewed studies, the largest of its kind. Among its findings:[63]"

  • More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.
  • Rates of female-perpetrated violence are higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%).
  • Male and female IPV are perpetrated from similar motives.
Studies comparing men and women in the power/control motive have mixed results overall.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 20:12

And yet if you talk to anyone who works with da on the ground - in charities, hospitals or the police they well tell you the number of female da victims assaulted, raped, injured, murdered etc far outweighs the number of men. And that includes people who work with male victims.

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2024 20:18

This evening, there was a brief report on the local news about the peak age of suicide in women being early 50s.

We are also seeing a huge upsurge in suicide in young women.

This coincidences with poor understanding and access to mental health support for women around menopause and down to a huge uptick in abuse of women via social media.

But it's feminism to blame for boys mental health issues.

This trainer doesn't have a fucking clue about anything.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 20:25

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 20:12

And yet if you talk to anyone who works with da on the ground - in charities, hospitals or the police they well tell you the number of female da victims assaulted, raped, injured, murdered etc far outweighs the number of men. And that includes people who work with male victims.

Well, unreported DV isn't reported. It happens behind closed doors. And the charities are very clear that a lot of male victims don't report. I think it was estimated at around twice the number of women.

I used to believe all the textbook feminist stuff. I knew every comeback and would've argued until blue in the face with somebody like my present self. Then I saw a male friend of mine being abused and how strangers laughed when he was headbutted/kneed in the balls in public, and how people didn't take it that seriously. Just like in all the social experiments you can watch on YT.

I'm looking at all those studies conducted over decades and thousands upon thousands of respondents and it's just too much to be coincidental IMHO. The metastudy alone is plenty. 1700 peer reviewed studies.

I almost refuse to believe anybody posting in good faith could ignore it (not meaning that as a personal dig, it's just how I feel).

I strongly believe that the innocent men and women (the majority of people) need to work together and man bashing is counter productive. Things are getting worse in regard to men following Andrea Tate etc, and most women refuse to identify as feminists nowadays, preferring to focus on 'equality' for both sexes.

Galadriell · 04/09/2024 20:26

Every single time I've seen those studies posted they get ignored.

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 20:38

Unreported means to police not to doctors, family, friends, counsellors, da charities.

Women don’t report dv either and the claim that more men that women don’t report is wild speculation.

So many MRAs claim that they used to be a feminist but then something happened, you’re the second on this thread. We know you’re lying.