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Feminism: chat

"Boys' poor mental health stems from feminism."

343 replies

Whattheduckery · 02/09/2024 11:00

Just been in a training session at my school and this is what the trainer has said. She followed with "because they don't have a club to be part of..."

It's made me so mad.

OP posts:
tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 05/09/2024 10:56

men know they probably won't get any support as the services are mainly aimed at women and feminists fight to have men excluded (often for good reason but still meaning that in the absence of men's shelters they're pretty screwed).

//

Trying to think who generally set up, fund and run shelters for women ... oh yes, that would be women.

Maybe men could start doing the same thing. You know, for men.

SilenceInside · 05/09/2024 11:00

Women's shelters have to exclude men, that's the point of them. Feminists don't fight for men's shelters to be closed down or in any way resist them being opened. Women's shelters are funded by charity in most (all?) cases. Men's shelters can be set up by any charity that thinks they're needed. No objection from this feminist.

username44416 · 05/09/2024 11:16

pigletinthewoods · 05/09/2024 10:15

I agree with you - when it comes to physical violence women as a class are indeed vulnerable to men. Hence the need to protect women only spaces- an average man is physically stronger than an average woman.

But it’s not the same as saying ‘my dad was a b**d, therefore all men are’.

There are many men out there (and women) scarred by women too. Not physically, although this happens more often that we’d like to admit, as someone else on here has already said. We can’t for example shy away from the fact that gay women experience intimate partner violence more often than bisexual and heterosexual women (61%, 44%, 35% retrospectively). I feel more should be done to explore this.

Emotional manipulation, parental alienation, reputation damage, blackmail, low level physical or verbal sexual harassment, bullying, false accusations etc are also forms of abuse. They aren’t as easy to measure as physical violence but they are all forms of covert aggression. Women typically engage in covert forms of aggression rather than open confrontation (there are solid evolutionary reasons for this) but we hardly measure these.

On top of that we have the institutional measures that elevate girls unfortunately, in reality, often at an expense of boys. Anyone who’s ever worked at school knows what I mean. This leads to either resentment or feeling depressed and alienated from the society among younger generations of boys. After all, society tells them from a young age that they don’t matter. We are yet to see the full consequences of this.

And there’s the problem of suppressed and discouraged research. There’s a book called ‘Legalizing misandry’ by K. Young and P. Nathanson that sheds some light on this problem in the US context.

Edited

On top of that we have the institutional measures that elevate girls unfortunately, in reality, often at an expense of boys.

Could you link to this research please, I'd be interested to take a look.

Anyone who’s ever worked at school knows what I mean.

Anecdotal

This leads to either resentment or feeling depressed and alienated from the society among younger generations of boys. After all, society tells them from a young age that they don’t matter. We are yet to see the full consequences of this.

This applies to all boys? I've read that some working class white boys are being let down by the education system. I wasn't aware it was all boys. I'd be interested to read the research/ evidence.

I'd be interested to see the consequences of instilling the belief that boys don't matter in a society that elevates girls. It will be interesting to see how girls who have been elevated earn more than men, get further in their careers, aren't burdened with subservient roles and become more powerful.

SilenceInside · 05/09/2024 11:18

I have two sons, the eldest is 12. I'd like to know how society is telling him he doesn't matter, so that I can counteract that. Could you give some examples of how that might impact a 12-year-old boy in our current society? Is it through school, or TV, gaming perhaps?

quantumbutterfly · 05/09/2024 11:53

SilenceInside · 05/09/2024 11:18

I have two sons, the eldest is 12. I'd like to know how society is telling him he doesn't matter, so that I can counteract that. Could you give some examples of how that might impact a 12-year-old boy in our current society? Is it through school, or TV, gaming perhaps?

I also have 2 sons. I remember seeing STEM events offered at their school that they would have loved but they were only for girls.
OTOH I'm a woman in STEM as was my mother before she gave it up (in days when women's roles were even more prescribed). I am aware of how my sex has influenced my expectations and opportunities in ways that my son's and brothers never experienced.

My idealist hat wants see equality of opportunity and expectation, my pragmatist hat says that's a neverending battle.

SilenceInside · 05/09/2024 11:59

@quantumbutterfly were there no other STEM events that your boys could have participated in offered at all?

I used to run subject specific STEM events when I was teaching, and they were open to all, but were always all boys, no matter how much promotion and encouragement I tried to do for the girls. My GCSE and A level classes were also nearly always boys, with sometimes one or two girls. You can probably guess the subject...!

biscuitandcake · 05/09/2024 12:00

pigletinthewoods · 05/09/2024 10:15

I agree with you - when it comes to physical violence women as a class are indeed vulnerable to men. Hence the need to protect women only spaces- an average man is physically stronger than an average woman.

But it’s not the same as saying ‘my dad was a b**d, therefore all men are’.

There are many men out there (and women) scarred by women too. Not physically, although this happens more often that we’d like to admit, as someone else on here has already said. We can’t for example shy away from the fact that gay women experience intimate partner violence more often than bisexual and heterosexual women (61%, 44%, 35% retrospectively). I feel more should be done to explore this.

Emotional manipulation, parental alienation, reputation damage, blackmail, low level physical or verbal sexual harassment, bullying, false accusations etc are also forms of abuse. They aren’t as easy to measure as physical violence but they are all forms of covert aggression. Women typically engage in covert forms of aggression rather than open confrontation (there are solid evolutionary reasons for this) but we hardly measure these.

On top of that we have the institutional measures that elevate girls unfortunately, in reality, often at an expense of boys. Anyone who’s ever worked at school knows what I mean. This leads to either resentment or feeling depressed and alienated from the society among younger generations of boys. After all, society tells them from a young age that they don’t matter. We are yet to see the full consequences of this.

And there’s the problem of suppressed and discouraged research. There’s a book called ‘Legalizing misandry’ by K. Young and P. Nathanson that sheds some light on this problem in the US context.

Edited

We can’t for example shy away from the fact that gay women experience intimate partner violence more often than bisexual and heterosexual women (61%, 44%, 35% retrospectively). I feel more should be done to explore this.

People have explored it! A third of gay women who have expereinced intimate partner violence have experienced it in an opposite sex relationship (from a man). When that is taken into account, the proportion of female on female interpartner violence is slightly less than that of male on female interpartner violence. Still noteworthy that violence happens between women too - but the original figure is misquoted and misquoted and it undermines any arguments in that area people might have.

Emotional manipulation, parental alienation, reputation damage, blackmail, low level physical or verbal sexual harassment, bullying, false accusations etc are also forms of abuse. They aren’t as easy to measure as physical violence but they are all forms of covert aggression. Women typically engage in covert forms of aggression rather than open confrontation (there are solid evolutionary reasons for this) but we hardly measure these.

Women might engage in covert agression more than women engage in physical/explicit agression. However, there is no evidence that women engage in covert agression more than men engage in covert agression. You seemed to be implying this was the case but the choices aren't be physically agressive V use covert agression. Physically abusive/agressive people also use covert aggression - this is true when men are beating their partner behind closed doors and telling friends and family they are crazy. Likewise men and women that aren't physically agressive can also use these "covert agressions".

It is natural to want things to be "symmetrical" - Men do X bad thing, therefore there must also be a Y bad thing women do. But, when it comes to (for example) "reputational damage" - if you want to argue that is a female thing you need to tell Kendrick Lamarr (and Drake) and all rappers they are in fact women. (Also Putin and those running propaganda machines, Liberian mercenaries, boxers slagging each other off before a fight, Emile Zola, Isaac Newton and the Royal Society, Elon Musk, Mathew Hopkins, boys that say their ex girlfriend is "for the streets", men who post revenge porn, men who post AI porn of celebrities). Women can also take part in "reputational damage" - its much more of an even playing field than physical violence. But women don't do it more than men. As you say it is "harder to define" and I think that makes it easier to "see" it when women do it, but completely ignore when men do. (Also there is no indication as to whether the thing being said is true, which also matters in real life).

And "parental alienation" is a pseudoscience that was based on no real evidence, and has led to children being forced to live with paedophiles so less of that.

On top of that we have the institutional measures that elevate girls unfortunately, in reality, often at an expense of boys. Anyone who’s ever worked at school knows what I mean.
The "sit and listen to the teacher then do some reading" model of schooling has existed long before girls were even educated. It was often argued that girls couldn't cope with the same educational rigours as boys. ironically, when girls were then given the chance - in the 20th century, they started to do better than boys. No-one rigged the system against men, girls just happen to be better within that pre-existing system. I agree disenfranchisement of boys is an issue - but more boys are hitting basic literacy rates, more boys are going to university than they were 70 years ago. Its just that proportionally, less than girls so to you it seems they are doing worse. If you want to help struggling boys, target them rather than arguing that its because girls are doing well.

quantumbutterfly · 05/09/2024 12:19

SilenceInside · 05/09/2024 11:59

@quantumbutterfly were there no other STEM events that your boys could have participated in offered at all?

I used to run subject specific STEM events when I was teaching, and they were open to all, but were always all boys, no matter how much promotion and encouragement I tried to do for the girls. My GCSE and A level classes were also nearly always boys, with sometimes one or two girls. You can probably guess the subject...!

No alternative for boys at that time.

I understand why we have events for girls in science. I remember my brother being encouraged to try for medical school whilst being told that I was at university to educate my children, (by my father of course).
I also know that I was already privileged to have that background, more than some, less than others.
Life is competitive and most of us will take an easy route if offered, but sometimes the route we take is because it's the only one we're shown or allowed to see.

Tmpnmc86 · 05/09/2024 12:21

I think society can treat teenage boys with a lot of suspicion vs girls. My son has been on the receiving end. It will be a few years yet before society elevates him from potentially up to no good to man who can phone, demand and receive a same day GP appointment.

biscuitandcake · 05/09/2024 14:02

quantumbutterfly · 05/09/2024 12:19

No alternative for boys at that time.

I understand why we have events for girls in science. I remember my brother being encouraged to try for medical school whilst being told that I was at university to educate my children, (by my father of course).
I also know that I was already privileged to have that background, more than some, less than others.
Life is competitive and most of us will take an easy route if offered, but sometimes the route we take is because it's the only one we're shown or allowed to see.

There is nothing wrong with targeting events to some groups. I think there is a problem with taking a too broad brush approach - there are less girls in STEM than boys but within the group that is "boys" there is a sub-group of boys from working class backgrounds who might feel that university STEM subjects are completely out of reach. So alongside initiatives targeting girls, it would be good to see more initiatives in lower performing schools, poorer areas etc. As well as of course, more general groups.

The biggest issue is that so much has been slashed - libraries for example, and they are 4 times more likely to have closed down in the least affluent areas compared to the richest.

biscuitandcake · 05/09/2024 14:11

Tmpnmc86 · 05/09/2024 12:21

I think society can treat teenage boys with a lot of suspicion vs girls. My son has been on the receiving end. It will be a few years yet before society elevates him from potentially up to no good to man who can phone, demand and receive a same day GP appointment.

As someone who has a very tall 11 year old, yes. They make a transition from "cute child" to "youth" very quickly and before their brains have caught up. As a woman, I can vividly remember being treated differently once my boobs started growing at about 11 and it was really difficult so I can sympathise.
Its complicated though because my son and his friends would themselves be more suspicous/cautious of groups of teens/young men than they would be of any other group (despite being that demographic themselves)6. I can't advise him NOT to exercise caution/use his intuition, so how could I demand a woman not do the same? Then you get into debates about checking kids for knives. My son is in the demographic most likely to be stop-and-searched. He is also in the demographic most likely to be stabbed. So is stop and search a bad thing or a good thing as a mother?

And, I think explaining to boys once they reach a certain age/height that people that don't know them can't read their minds so (eg) don't walk directly behind women at night time etc can be done sensitively and is part of teaching about theory of mind/growing up.

Galadriell · 05/09/2024 23:48

quantumbutterfly · 05/09/2024 08:53

Galadriell are you a fan of Tolkien? He spells your name Galadriel in the books I think.

I know. That name was taken sadly.

Galadriell · 05/09/2024 23:50

You haven't supplied any data.

Well, aside from the 13 studies on the previous page. 😂 Posted at 20:04. One is a meta study of 1700 peer reviewed studies and another is a 32 nation study.

Why lie about this stuff when people can actually see the links?

Galadriell · 05/09/2024 23:55

Mirabai · 04/09/2024 10:52

An academic background in feminism. But makes the fundamental mistake of presenting feminism as one united philosophy and claims that feminists welcome men in female spaces - what is then GC/terf, and why have feminists lost their jobs over GC views, Pull the other one.

GC is a tiny minority but can seem like more as this website is perhaps the biggest hub for them. I saw a stat the other day that something like 60-70% of feminists belive gender is fluid.

quantumbutterfly · 06/09/2024 00:03

I expect many women don't see themselves as feminists but quite enjoy the privileges of feminism without appreciating how hard won they were.

username44416 · 06/09/2024 00:04

Galadriell · 05/09/2024 23:50

You haven't supplied any data.

Well, aside from the 13 studies on the previous page. 😂 Posted at 20:04. One is a meta study of 1700 peer reviewed studies and another is a 32 nation study.

Why lie about this stuff when people can actually see the links?

I evidently didn't see the links😂

Therefore it's not a lie😂

So instead of being an irritant, why not point me to the post?😂

What data do you want to see?😂

username44416 · 06/09/2024 00:05

Galadriell · 05/09/2024 23:55

GC is a tiny minority but can seem like more as this website is perhaps the biggest hub for them. I saw a stat the other day that something like 60-70% of feminists belive gender is fluid.

Do you have a link to the information please? I'd be interested to see how they gathered the data.

Galadriell · 06/09/2024 00:19

quantumbutterfly · 06/09/2024 00:03

I expect many women don't see themselves as feminists but quite enjoy the privileges of feminism without appreciating how hard won they were.

I agree.

I think a lot of feminists also take for granted the world that men have built (because even they agree it's a man's world). We've made immense progress in the last 150 years as a species.

quantumbutterfly · 06/09/2024 00:21

They didn't build it alone.

username44416 · 06/09/2024 00:23

Galadriell · 06/09/2024 00:19

I agree.

I think a lot of feminists also take for granted the world that men have built (because even they agree it's a man's world). We've made immense progress in the last 150 years as a species.

Feminists don't particularly appreciate the world that men built because it largely excluded women and systematically oppressed them. Countries with a modicum of equality advance faster than those that don't.

Galadriell · 06/09/2024 00:24

Not solely but the majority. There aren't very many women builders or STEM graduates. Feminists tell us this themselves.

Galadriell · 06/09/2024 00:25

Countries with a modicum of equality advance faster than those that don't.

Like China?

SilenceInside · 06/09/2024 00:25

Do you think that a world would not have been built if women had had more freedoms, rights and opportunities in the past 150 years? Would it have been similar to our current world, or just totally shit because women were involved?

Galadriell · 06/09/2024 00:29

SilenceInside · 06/09/2024 00:25

Do you think that a world would not have been built if women had had more freedoms, rights and opportunities in the past 150 years? Would it have been similar to our current world, or just totally shit because women were involved?

Well, we don't really know whether we'd be anywhere close to where we are now if we'd lived in a matriarchy.

Plenty of studies show that women don't collaborate as well as men and don't like working for one another. I remember watching a 'battle of the sexes' TV show set on a island. The men had built shelter and were barbecuing on the beach by the second day. The woman hadn't built anything and were still squabbling.

I'd emphasise that this isn't my anecdotal opinion, I'm stating what happened.

username44416 · 06/09/2024 00:30

Galadriell · 06/09/2024 00:25

Countries with a modicum of equality advance faster than those that don't.

Like China?

I don't understand your point about China, women are very involved in the workforce and therefore there is a modicum of equality. Women were often educated in and sent to work in whatever professions had a need, so there are a lot of women in STEM.