Sex wars

[Superlambaanana]

I predict that 'left vs right' is going to be overtaken by 'men vs women' in the future. What do you think?

The political discourse is already becoming dominated by sex based issues and I'm not just talking about the gender culture war. Trump and Harris are expected to battle it out over abortion. Which is basically a debate about whether women should be allowed to have equal rights or must have their life choices dictated to them by others (men).

Men are feeling marginalised and extreme misogynistic behaviour is on the rise as a result. The report released this week about male violence against women and girls was shocking and part of an ongoing trend.

Misandry is also on the rise and many women are now opting to live alone (see thread on Single with a capital S).

I listened to Jordan Peterson's interview with Elon Musk yesterday. Peterson is incredibly fond of the sound of his own voice and Musk barely got a word in, but both clearly feel society needs to be steered by men like them, to make it the way they think it should be. They are concerned about the future and the declining birth rates in Western countries. But neither seemed to grasp that the reason is that men and women are diverging.

The majority of relationships fail and I believe that in the majority of cases the failure is down to men. Women have to give far more than they ever get in return from men - still shouldering the bulk of the domestic load and childcare while men act selfishly, take their families for granted and make a lot of poor life decisions based on their sexual urges.

So it's no surprise that as women become more educated, they choose to pursue more fulfilling lives focussed on careers, friendships and living alone.

But of course the future of humanity relies not just on men and women coexisting, but actually loving each other enough to procreate and raise well rounded children.

How is that going to happen if the social and political discourse is focused on a war between the sexes and men and women come to hate each other more and more?

You listened to Peterson and Musk? You must have a strong gag reflex.

I tend to agree with you on this. Women are fighting back against male entitlement, so many are either becoming Andrew Tate clones or turning to stealth tactics like this genderbending ideology. It's as if they think; "Well, if I can't have all the traditional privileges of being a man, I might as well say I'm a woman to lull them into a false sense of security, then demand privileges based on that."

I do see a lot of women leaving selfish, useless men, but not nearly enough unfortunately. It's just enough to panic them, but it's not enough for them to give up the beliefs which cause them to behave that way. They are choosing to blame it on women and become MRA, Trumpers and the like.

I listened to the whole Peterson/ Musk thing while doing a mundane, but enjoyable task. So no time wasted and I keep abreast of what they think. Peterson seems to be lost down a religious iconography rabbit hole because he's writing a book about that atm so bored on about what he's learned about Moses at every opportunity. Also believes that a society that abandons its sacred religious images is on the verge of collapse - Mary and child = women must be homemakers apparently.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

Women seemed to have had the same complains about men for centuries, still they het together with men and have kids.

What your talking about is just an online phenomenon and people profiting from social media and eternal men vs. women discourse.

In reality both are obsessed with each other, LOL.
(Well the gays aren’t, but they are a tiny, tiny minority.)
And sail through life very conventionally.
Reality is really different from online.

I'm not worrying about this in a personal way. More looking at it as a social issue.

I agree women have felt oppressed by men for centuries, but they haven't been able to act on it (and live a single life in large numbers) until now and I don't believe men have felt their status has been threatened by women until more recently.

So there is a changing dynamic which has already become political and is sure to continue to divide the sexes as more and more women wake up to the negative implications of living a 'traditional' life as a wife and mother.

I don't think men are going to change. They aren't going to suddenly wake up and stop behaving in all the unpleasant and violent ways we hear about daily on MN and IRL. We are already seeing their reaction as their privilege declines - incels, more male violence etc. Men just demand, bully and get physical when they don't get what they want.

The birth rate is just going to keep declining and as it does it will inevitably become a bigger political issue that left vs right politics.

I think birth rates are going down for complex overlapping reasons.

Economic insecurity.
Arrested personal development / longer adolescent / protected "youth" into mid thirties.
Housing.
Falling fertility rates caused by chemicals and micro plastics.
Choice.

I don't think men and women will divide into two tribes though. I think issues of gender will continue to transcend sex. By which I mean, you will continue to get men and women breaking for/against liberal and conservative ideals in complex ways.

@sadabouti those reasons (and others) may well be the cause of the decline in birth rates in western countries, but the Number 1 reason for the overall global decline is female access to education - the more access girls and women have to education, the fewer babies they have. The Number 2 reason is female access to contraceptives (including abortion).

I hope you're right though that society won't divide down the lines of sex. It would make for a good dystopian movie, but would be a hellish world to live in!

@Superlambaanana wouldn't you categorise those factors as driving choice (which is in my list)? If you have education and contraception, a woman can choose (a least to a degree, because influence and coercion remain).

What other sex based issues were they talking about apart from abortion?

You'd be surprised at how many Americans (and you're talking about Americans here) support Trump and don't want abortion.

There's a rise in the 'trad wife' movement in the States which is interesting, coinciding with the rise of Trump and his dubious Christian values.

Although on the surface we seem similar, culturally we're very different to the States. I believe about 90% of people in the UK agree with abortion. The States also tends to be more puritan in values.

Their rates of domestic abuse and sexual assault are horrific though and they have child marriage. I haven't heard either Biden or Harris tackle those subjects, whereas it was in Labour's manifesto.

Although LGBT population is growing and growing in western countries where it is being heavily pushed on kids.

Men and women will still get together because most people don't want to be alone, although maybe post-fertile years or after a divorce/bad relationship experiences, but generally not in their 20s or 30s when starting out. They are having kids later though and less kids than they used to due to cost of living or other lifestyle factors.

There are loads of right-wing women around online, like the tradwives. And there are also loads of left-wing men around… like the stop oil guys and other environmentalist groups. I don’t think it is that simple as you describe. Also a lot of women are in the pro life movement.

You've misunderstood- I don't think men will all become right wing and women left wing. I mean that the issues which currently divide us into those categories will become irrelevant if the population continues to decline and has the predicted catastrophic impact on the functioning of society.

If women continue to reject traditional roles and men continue to hate women, birth rates will continue to decline. In that situation, men will want to coerce or force women to reproduce. Women will fight back harder to avoid a further loss of rights/ autonomy etc.

The issues contributing to population decline will therefore put men and women on opposing sides of all political debate.

But where are these women who reject traditonal roles?
Most women who are partnered with men / have kids have pretty traditional roles, some complain, some just get on with it, some broke up with their partner and now do most of the parenting alone.
MN, including this very feminist site complain about the same damn thing.

Women go into relationship with men who watch porn, who objectify women, have all the red flags etc everyday.
Most people (if I remember correctly more women have kids than men, but still…) have kids, just fewer - and that is good for the planet.

Are the men who think they are entitled to sex / relationship / kids? Yeah, I’m pretty sure there is.
Do most women want those thing and have or are willing to lower the bar to get those things? Yes, absolutely.

So, I just don’t see how this is something to actually worry.
From this angle at least.
I’m more worried about women’s low standards.

I don’t think I actually totally disagree with you, but like I said: in the real world, both men and women are obsessed with each other - still.

I think everyone is slightly misunderstanding me. And I admit I am struggling a bit to articulate my point.

The population is already declining in the western world, and the rest of the world is heading the same way.

Just saying 'oh men and women still fancy each other so we'll be fine' is missing the obvious- it's not fine. Women overall have to have children at a replacement rate and we just aren't doing it.

That may be good for the planet, but it's bad for humans. Society is just as likely - probably even more likely- to collapse as a result of rapid population decline as it is as a result of rapid population growth.

Rapid population decline results in too many old people vs working age people. That collapses government budgets - we're already feeling the early effects of an overburdened NHS and stretched pension pots.

What I'm predicting is that men and women will be on opposite sides of this when it comes to finding a solution. Because it's being caused by men and women being on opposite sides.

Also it's insidious so by the time everybody catches on to the problem- men and women living separately and too few babies - it will be too late to reverse the consequences.

Population collapse isn't likely anytime soon. There are plenty of countries with high birth rates who export their people as immigrants. Some may not like that (because of fears over race and religion etc), but it is a fact. Countries like Japan are at the coalface of population decline because they don't let many non-Japanese people in. We don't have that problem in the UK.

Yes I agree this is a slow burn issue. But it does already feel like it's rising to the top of the agenda. 'Trad wives' vs abortion, marriage vs transgender sterilisation, transgender issues generally, misogyny in the police, attacks on Single Catwomen, Andrew Tate, etc etc.

This is true, and perhaps the answer is immigration. Women in the third world are still having a lot of children. So families with children could be given first dibs at getting into first world countries.

Exactly so.

It's not really the point of the thread but there is currently a rise in the far right and alongside those beliefs are very restrictive roles for women.

@cupcaske123 you could well have a good point that I am conflating the rise of right wing politics with my (admittedly not well formed) idea that it's becoming all about men vs women in political debates. Will ponder this!

It's not just the rise of far right politics, it's the rise of the manosphere. The internet has acted like a massive trawler net sweeping the globe catching up men and boys in extreme woman hate.

True. This is exactly what will happen unless you’re Muslim.

@Farting I don't know if your just being facetious (your username also seems to suggest so) or if you have a genuine point to make?

People will be impacted by the divergence of men and women and population decline regardless of their religion. If there aren't enough working age people to support older people, society creaks. Continue in that vein for long enough and I believe society will crack down the middle.

I’m not being facetious.

Islam defines the rules between men and women. Non Islamic religions will degenerate as you suggest, but the Muslim population will not.

So, over time, you will be replaced by Muslims who successfully manage male / female relations and reproduce at a higher rate than non Muslims.

It’s very simple.

Oh I see what you mean. But even muslims cannot overcome societal collapse if the global population declines too rapidly. They may live in religious segregation but they don't live in global isolation and require access to resources and services the same as everyone else.

I think the internet brings polarisation between any 2 groups: left & right, man & women, western & eastern. Social media just brings about that we drift apart from eachother instead of connecting with eachother. I think that it will be a matter of years that social media will become more regulated and people need to get off their phones and meet eachother in the real world.