Can you talk to your partner about your stance on women’s rights?

[Aurora791]

So just a really general question really as my partner and I are having troubles in other areas of our life and I don’t know if I’m being too hard lined on this. For context, he is your typical alpha male and in a very male dominated profession.

I raised in passing the Jane 5-live question earlier and it turned into a giant debate that has led to him essentially calling me a bigot and saying that he’s found it really offensive that I said women need safe spaces away from men because it paints them all as rapists.

Can fundamental differences in beliefs on the role and rights of women ever be overcome? According to him every conversation turns into something to do with gender, and that I’ve become a rampant feminist since having our daughter (because being a feminist is obviously an insult 🙄 ). The irony isn’t lost on me that I don’t have a safe space to talk about my beliefs around a need for safe spaces!

Until sex offenders have "rapist", "groper", flasher", "voyeur" etc tattooed on their foreheads, we have no way of knowing which men we need to avoid, so we have to treat all unfamiliar men as potential threats. (A lot of familiar men too in reality, but we won't mention that as it'd probably blow his mind). It's not bigotry, it's risk assessment.

OP it sounds like you are growing and changing in a particular direction and your DH isn't. Personally I wouldn't be able to live with a partner who didn't share my views (broadly speaking - particularly when it comes to feminism and equality) because it would then be normalized for the children which I just couldn't live with. Good luck.

I think the children point is vital. If you're considering children in the future leave him now. I absolutely couldn't parent my children with a man who wasn't also a feminist

Neither me nor DH feel strongly about the trans issues. Not to say we don't feel strongly about women's rights in general but just not seeing this huge threat from trans people that you and others see. I know people strongly disagree with me. Many people feel like we do - and many people feel like you do.

Yes, I can talk about women's rights with my DH. Like many men he had some minor sexism he wasn't really aware of but he's got better - especially after we had DD! He'll bring up current issues more than me.

his chip on his shoulder about women’s rights eroding those of men is something I just don’t think I can get past.

What 'rights' of men does he think are being eroded? Sounds like a case of 'when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression', doesn't it.

On the specific question of how men react to the 'safe spaces' issue - I suspect it's very revealing. Decent men don't assume they're all being tarred with the same brush. They view rape and violence against women with abhorrence, but they know what a minority of men are like.

My DP is nearly 70, oozes “alpha male” and is as pro women, and women’s rights, as you can get. My father would be 110 if he were alive…he was in the military from WW2 to retirement, and he was also actively supportive of feminism, my mother wouldn’t have stayed with him if he wasn’t!

Something as basic as women’s rights and safety, especially when you have daughters, shouldn’t be something you have to tone down in your own home.

Yes and he agrees with me on protection of women's rights.

I wouldn't be with a man who I couldn't talk to about anything and who didn't agree on this issue.

My DH absolutely shares the same views as me. I would find it really difficult if I couldn’t talk to at least one person about being GC. Happily though, I have found a work colleague who is also GC and that has been such an immense relief!

Yes , no and kinda.

Some things he automatically gets and is GC as am I.

Some he'll listen, and accept my view/feelings on it or follow my lead, but not necessarily change his mind.

Some he well and truly can't see /understand and it's an agree to disagree situation. Given how many women on here don't "understand " here because it never happened to them, I don't see it as a deal breaker.

I don’t see a “huge threat from trans people”.

I see a huge threat from any man being able to claim trans status in order to gain access to women’s spaces.

I’m sick of explaining this. Why don’t you people listen to what we’re actually saying, instead of running everything through the rainbow filter?

I have an alpha male. A genuine one, who is a leader, not an aggressive bully. He gets why it’s important to me and is sickened by the behaviours of local trans identifying males who have a habit of walking around in outfits guaranteed to show their lacy/skimpy underwear. He also understands that men and women move through the world differently, because he listens to me. So he understands why his daughters need to watch their drinks, be safe when out, need safe spaces. Despite our shared love of action films, he also know that the action women featured in the films wouldn’t stand a chance against the action men in real life and why women need their own sports. He also is angry about the general unfairness designed into the world in Invisible Women. He shuts down conversations that degrade women because, as an alpha male, he has that power and recognition that change has to come from men.

Dh is a bit 'not all men' and gets defensive if I talk too much about VAWG.

My DH and I have pretty similar views on most big issues, I would struggle if we didn't. However my parents disagreed on nearly every topic and had a fantastic marriage, so it is possible with a lot of tolerance.

It's easy to come on a board where you know that you will find people who strongly support a view you hold and get told that you're right and he's wrong. But that's not the issue here, you need to figure out how to work together with your husband to keep your marriage healthy despite differing views. He's saying you're turning every conversation to gender, a topic you don't agree on, and I think you should reflect on that.

If you're going to agree to disagree then you're going to have to avoid the topic. If you're going to keep talking and trying to bring him round to your viewpoint (which many people, including women, don't agree with) then you may well kill your marriage. I suspect the ball is very much in your court but that you're not playing the game you think you are. It's about your marriage and how you handled disagreements, not about gender.

She said partner so he hasn't even married her.

Yup, sends me articles etc. I wouldn’t say he’s as angry as I am though, I think also having a DD makes a really big difference here.

He didn't really get it until TW in women's sports peaked him.
Now he's as terfy as me.

It saddens me that there are men who's ears have only pricked up on this issue because it's effects something they care about, rather than because of the threat to women and children, but any peak is a peak I suppose, got to take them where we can!

Yep totally on the same page ! DH is involved in sport and having to deal with direct impact of women’s teams turning up with TW players. National
sports body is still hand wringing be kind tho have promised a new policy this autumn (no rush!)

Menopause has also made him crashingly aware of the impact of female biology

bloody love DH

I do listen, I've heard the argument a thousand times and I disagree. We're allowed to have different opinions. I just can't see all these men pretending to be trans so they can go in to a public bathroom where there are locked cubicles to assault a woman. If a man wants to assault a woman there are far easier ways to go about it.
That's my opinion. The threat isn't zero but in my opinion it's tiny. The % of men who are trans women is tiny, the % of traswomen who are actually just faking it to gain access to females toilets and changing rooms is even more tiny. I'm at far greater risk from men in many other areas of my life.
You and others disagree. Others agree with me.

DH is if anything more terfy than I am (although it took a while).

Last night we were discussing how some men just don't get it and he commented that men's ability to prioritise the needs of other men was seemingly limitless.

Yes, I can and I’ve been talking to him about my gender critical views for several years now. He didn’t always agree with my views early on, mind you.

On paper, he’s a fairly typical leftie activist bloke (we are both lifelong Labour supporters, both from socialist, immigrant backgrounds). We don’t always see eye-to-eye on some issues (Corbyn springs to mind - he loved him, I stopped campaigning for Labour during his leadership) but we manage to debate respectfully and be open to each others perspectives.

But for a couple of years, he really didn’t say much in response to my views and (sometimes!) rants. His virtual silence pissed me off, as I read it as not being particularly interested and thinking I was being overly dramatic when I talked about the threat to sex-based rights for women and safeguarding of children. He now says he was just trying to absorb everything I was saying, as he admittedly didn’t know much about the issues I was raising.

The penny dropped for him when the whole issue of men in women’s sport reared its head. We have very sporty teenage daughters and he was outraged and just couldn’t believe it was allowed to happen. He started showing a lot more interest after that.

That was around 2 years ago, and since then he has gradually moved to a GC position and he listens to and defers to me on this shit now, and rightly so! I’ve spent our entire 25 year relationship being an ‘ally’ to him as in a lot of his anti-racist activism (he is biack, I’m white) and although I’m not drawing a direct comparison between race and sex, I did hope he would listen to me and back me on such a crucial issue affecting me and our DDs…and he does (albeit a bit belatedly).

@SallyWD the issue is that it doesn't stop at toilets and changing rooms(though even that is bad enough). It was never just about the toilets. It's everywhere jails, hospitals and other healthcare setting, rape centres and support groups, schools, girl guides, sports etc. The list is infinite.

Would you be happy with your y6 girl sharing a room with a boy during a week's residential? Would she feel comfortable and happy with that?

To be honest, I'd be fine with DD sharing a room with a 10/11 year old trans girl. I wouldn't see much threat there. I think DD would be fine with it - there are a couple of trans kids at school who are accepted as their chosen identity. However, if DD did have any concerns about it (or about anything else) I would always raise these concerns with the teacher.

Would you be happy with your y6 girl sharing a room with a boy during a week's residential? Would she feel comfortable and happy with that?

Or your 13 year old daughter to share a tent with a bepenised 'girl' at guide camp?

Predatory men don't have to 'do' anything to pretend to be trans (although there are bonus points for pink leggings) because transwomen don't have to do anything to be trans. They can have a full beard, 'male' clothing and not a single nod to femaninity and be trans, because all it takes is saying so.

If 'Davina' can walk into the ladies unchallenged in a shirt and tie and goatee because they are gender fluid some days they feel female then so can any Tom, Dick or Harry.

Being trans (and therefore pretending to be trans) means nothing. There is no thing or things men have to do to be able to call themselves women. They don't have to have surgery (very few do) or take hormones or shave or put on lipstick they just have to say a few word and bingo they are in so it's not difficult, time consuming or embarrassing to dodgy men to claim to be trans. In fact they don't even have to claim it unless they are caught or someone challenges them.

I don't particularly worry about being assaulted in a toilet because I know it's rare although it most definitely happens, there are documented cases. I also don't have religious reasons although of course some do.

I want a space where I don't have to see or hear men for a few minutes, it's about privacy and dignity and a small amount of relief from the outside world. I don't want to come out of a cubicle in a small space after changing a tampon or something and have a man right there, or several talking in their loud blokey voices. Imo men are messier too.

Thanks- this message was blunt but I didn’t come here for an echo chamber and appreciate the challenge. I’ve been open about the fact that we have wider issues in the relationship, and whilst they aren’t due to gender, they are largely based gendered topics such as sharing household responsibilities, mental load, childcare etc (all of which falls on me who also works full time). It’s also around his attitude and feeling of entitlement to sex, so a lot of our relationship issues do sadly have a really strong gender undertone.

Thanks for all the thoughts and really constructive guidance. Appreciate it all and will take it away and continue working on the communication and see if what we have is salvageable!