Just seen this on Facebook…

[Jasmine82]

Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.
Men have needs. You look frumpy. Loosen up. Show some skin. Look sexy. Look hot. Don’t be so provocative. You’re asking for it. Wear black. Wear heels. You’re too dressed up. You’re too dressed down. Don’t wear those sweatpants, you look like you’ve let yourself go.
Be a lady they said. Don’t be too fat. Don’t be too thin. Don’t be too large. Don’t be too small. Eat up. Slim down. Stop eating so much. Don’t eat too fast. Order a salad. Don’t eat carbs. Skip dessert. You need to lose weight. Fit into that dress. Go on a diet. Watch what you eat. Eat celery. Chew gum. Drink lots of water. You have to fit into those jeans. God, you look like a skeleton. Why don’t you just eat? You look emaciated. You look sick. Eat a burger. Men like women with some meat on their bones. Be small. Be light. Be little. Be petite. Be feminine. Be a size zero. Be a double zero. Be nothing. Be less than nothing.
Be a lady they said. Remove your body hair. Shave your legs. Shave your armpits. Shave your bikini line. Wax your face. Wax your arms. Wax your eyebrows. Get rid of your moustache. Bleach this. Bleach that. Lighten your skin. Tan your skin. Eradicate your scars. Cover your stretch marks. Tighten your abs. Plump your lips. Botox your wrinkles. Lift your face. Tuck your tummy. Thin your thighs. Tone your calves. Perk up your boobs. Look natural. Be yourself. Be confident. You’re trying too hard. You look overdone. Men don’t like girls who try too hard.
Be a lady they said. Save yourself. Be pure. Be virginal. Don’t talk about sex. Don’t flirt. Don’t be a skank. Don’t be a whore. Don’t sleep around. Don’t lose your dignity. Don’t have sex with too many men. Don’t give yourself away. Men don’t like sluts. Don’t be a prude. Don’t be so uptight. Have a little fun. Smile more. Pleasure men. Be experienced. Be sexual. Be innocent. Be dirty. Be virginal. Be sexy. Be the cool girl. Don’t be like other girls.
Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Lengthen your lashes. Colour your lips. Powder,blush,bronze,highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly.
Be a lady they said. Don’t talk too loud. Don’t talk too much. Don’t take up space. Don’t sit like that. Don’t stand like that. Don’t be intimidating. Why are You so miserable? Don’t be a bitch. Don’t be too bossy. Don’t be assertive. Don’t overreact. Don’t be so emotional. Don’t cry. Don’t yell. Don’t swear. Be passive. Be obedient. Endure the pain. Be pleasing. Don’t complain. Let him down easy. Boost his ego. Make him fall for you. Men want what they can’t have. Don’t give yourself away. Make him work for it. Men love the chase. Fold his clothes. Cook his dinner. Keep him happy. That’s a woman’s job. You’ll make a good wife some day. You hyphenated your name? Take his last name. Crazy feminist. Give him children. You don’t want children? You will some day. You will change your mind.
Be a lady they said. Don’t get raped. Protect yourself. Don’t drink too much. Don’t walk alone. Don’t go out too late. Don’t dress like that. Don’t show too much. Don’t leave your drink. Have a buddy. Walk where it’s well lit. Stay in safe neighbourhoods. Tell someone where you’re going. Bring pepper spray. Buy a rape whistle. Hold your keys like a weapon. Take a self defence course. Check your trunk. Lock your doors. Don’t go out alone. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t bat your eyelashes. Don’t look easy. Don’t attract attention. Don’t work late. Don’t crack dirty jokes. Don’t smile at strangers. Don’t go out at night. Don’t trust anyone. Don’t say yes. Don’t say no.
Just “be a lady” they said.
-Camille Rainville

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPQcWNyGZKA

good video with narration by Cynthia Nixon

Very often the 'they' is other women.

Trying to process why these kinds of comments make me angry and I think it's cause they are so thoughtless and shallow. Yes, women can be footsoldiers in the war against women. I see it as "if you can't beat them join them", kind of like joining the bullies in the playground to avoid being picked on themselves. But these comments ignore the "why" behind that. Would be interesting to hear MN'ers thoughts on why some women take that approach. I think it's because looking at the true scale of misogyny is fucking terrifying, and life seems easier if you just play along. So, I don't blame those women. I feel compassion for them.

People might be told to do and be all these things, but largely by social media, and other irrelevant sources, I'm sure I have heard a lot of this, but never paid any attention to it or acted on it. Why would I?

I just took “they” to be society in general. We know everything listed, but quite hard hitting to see it all written down and the most depressing thing is, we can all add to it!

Agreed, women to blame again, but we should be used to that. I don’t know why some women happily go along with this… maybe they are afraid to put their head above the parapet and challenge it because that would make them a “crazy feminist “ wouldn’t it? Complete social conditioning that we just go along with ( not all of us, but a lot!) it. I just hope that any woman who read that post, who maybe hasn’t really questioned it before, thinks - hang on a minute! Wtf!
I live in hope.

I don't think it's "just social media and other irrelevant sources", I think it's woven into the very fabric of our lives, and if you've been able to ignore it then I'd be interested to know when you became aware of it and what your strategies have been for avoiding it?

Yeh there could be another verse

Play the game! Play along, collude with this 'song". No wait Be a siste!. Stand up for your sex. Don't be like the other girls, be better, be more, be stronger, but don't be crazy, don't scare away men.

I don't know what you mean by "strategies" - I just ignore it all and enjoy being myself

I also see women judging women as an unconscious survival strategy. Women who have thought things through can see that, but not everybody can afford to decode where their values and integrity start and where their necessity to please society/men/boss ends. It's hard to parse them out.
My father and brother both think I'm "crazy" to a degree.
I've no relationshipwith my father.
There is a cost to seeing through the bullshit, especially when you've no power, say, money...

You think a person's parents, siblings, partner, friends, teachers, church leaders, neighbours, plus media and society at large including institutions like the police can be dismissed as 'irrelevant sources'?

It isn't just about 'social media' - these messages are as old as organised society.

Comments like mine annoy you because they highlight an inconvenient truth for feminism.

A lot of women perpetuate misogyny because it makes their own lives easier and in doing so make things worse for the women who follow.

Men don't need to do anything to defeat feminism, women will do it for them.

When say 'women are to blame' depressingly this is sometimes true.

It is a symptom of a misogynist patriarchy though.

Studies have been done in places like Colombia. This policing of women is most severe where losing men's approval has the highest cost.

@Hateam question for you to ponder why does policing other women's dress/behaviour make their lives easier.

Men rarely police other men, even though, my God, they should.

Men are the ones raping, murdering, objectifying women and abandoning children.

But it is women who judge other women ?
Why is that?

Some women are a selfish.
Some women are horrible.

Some women can, and should, be held accountable for their actions.

If you can't acknowledge a problem, you can't solve it.

Mothers train their daughters in what they see as survival skills.

I remember, ‘you’ll end up dead in a ditch’, ‘people will think you’re a Lolita’, fur coat and pins in her knickers, abusing the privilege etc.

Women are supposed to police each other both to keep each other safe from men and to present a united front to men and to appease men.

You don’t want to be too modest and left behind by ann attractive sexily clad woman so you try and tone them down, bring them into line with the appropriately dressed women.

It ends in FGM.

These attitudes have been around a lot longer than social media.

It's an acknowledged truth that internalised misogyny exists, my question is why? What motivates a woman to take that approach? I think it's an interesting question, rather than just blaming the women who do? Women, and some more than others, stand to lose their security, family, jobs, social standing, safety, relative freedom and health even, by standing up and saying anything in support of women's rights. So it's understandable that some women choose an easier path. So let's stop blaming them for the male dominated social structures that enforce it.
You say "Men don't need to do anything to defeat feminism", you are right but not in the way you mean, men (#not all men) just stay silent, enjoy the benefits of the system, maybe wear a white ribbon once a year, and keep the staus quo. That ensures we have a constantly uphill battle for equality when half of the population can pretend the problem doesn't exist, and shout down anyone who brings it up, anywhere, anytime.

Was also making me think of all the language which only applies to women/ girls.
Tramp
Whore
Slag
Slut
Skank
Bitch
Bint
Slapper
Bike
And many more I can’t think of just now.
What are the male alternatives?

Internalised misogyny will part of this but isn't the full answer.

Some women are just not very nice. They don't give a shit about anybody: shop workers, men, waiters they're just terrible. They're don't give a shit for other women either. They'll throw anybody under a bus to make their own life easier and get what they want. That's not internalised misogyny, that's just being a terrible person. T

Actually, with kindness, I think your strategy might be to not see it.
And I get it.
But it does make me wonder what drew you to the MN feminist discussion boards in the first place?

That not what we are discussing

well, I think of myself as a feminist - I don't see the contradiction here!

It is much less scary to think 'bad things happen if you do the wrong things' than 'bad things could happen to anyone, including me'.

Judgement and victim-blaming are tools of psychological self-protection.

Women are supposed to police each other both to keep each other safe from men and to present a united front to men and to appease men.
It's mostly this i think. Mothers teach their daughters on how to be safe, how to play the game and so it gets handed down until we've (women) built this cage around us without realising. I still remind my daughters to stay safe by not walking at night in quiet places, not to have headphones on etc etc. I hope I would say it to a son too but I doubt I actually would.

Since coming to this board (and relationships) I've realised I've been "trained" to think a certain way because that is how my parents were "trained" as were theirs. It was an acceptable way to be in society and no questions were asked why or they were shushed down. I distinctly remember asking why I had to do more chores compared to my older brothers. I cannot remember the answers but I do remember the outcome. I dusted, hoovered, swept. They did not.

A lot of that list in the OP I've said to other women/girls. It was only based on wanting to protect and keep them safe. This board does like to tilt my world sometimes