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Feminism: chat

Just seen this on Facebook…

50 replies

Jasmine82 · 14/05/2024 19:54

Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.
Men have needs. You look frumpy. Loosen up. Show some skin. Look sexy. Look hot. Don’t be so provocative. You’re asking for it. Wear black. Wear heels. You’re too dressed up. You’re too dressed down. Don’t wear those sweatpants, you look like you’ve let yourself go.
Be a lady they said. Don’t be too fat. Don’t be too thin. Don’t be too large. Don’t be too small. Eat up. Slim down. Stop eating so much. Don’t eat too fast. Order a salad. Don’t eat carbs. Skip dessert. You need to lose weight. Fit into that dress. Go on a diet. Watch what you eat. Eat celery. Chew gum. Drink lots of water. You have to fit into those jeans. God, you look like a skeleton. Why don’t you just eat? You look emaciated. You look sick. Eat a burger. Men like women with some meat on their bones. Be small. Be light. Be little. Be petite. Be feminine. Be a size zero. Be a double zero. Be nothing. Be less than nothing.
Be a lady they said. Remove your body hair. Shave your legs. Shave your armpits. Shave your bikini line. Wax your face. Wax your arms. Wax your eyebrows. Get rid of your moustache. Bleach this. Bleach that. Lighten your skin. Tan your skin. Eradicate your scars. Cover your stretch marks. Tighten your abs. Plump your lips. Botox your wrinkles. Lift your face. Tuck your tummy. Thin your thighs. Tone your calves. Perk up your boobs. Look natural. Be yourself. Be confident. You’re trying too hard. You look overdone. Men don’t like girls who try too hard.
Be a lady they said. Save yourself. Be pure. Be virginal. Don’t talk about sex. Don’t flirt. Don’t be a skank. Don’t be a whore. Don’t sleep around. Don’t lose your dignity. Don’t have sex with too many men. Don’t give yourself away. Men don’t like sluts. Don’t be a prude. Don’t be so uptight. Have a little fun. Smile more. Pleasure men. Be experienced. Be sexual. Be innocent. Be dirty. Be virginal. Be sexy. Be the cool girl. Don’t be like other girls.
Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Lengthen your lashes. Colour your lips. Powder,blush,bronze,highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly.
Be a lady they said. Don’t talk too loud. Don’t talk too much. Don’t take up space. Don’t sit like that. Don’t stand like that. Don’t be intimidating. Why are You so miserable? Don’t be a bitch. Don’t be too bossy. Don’t be assertive. Don’t overreact. Don’t be so emotional. Don’t cry. Don’t yell. Don’t swear. Be passive. Be obedient. Endure the pain. Be pleasing. Don’t complain. Let him down easy. Boost his ego. Make him fall for you. Men want what they can’t have. Don’t give yourself away. Make him work for it. Men love the chase. Fold his clothes. Cook his dinner. Keep him happy. That’s a woman’s job. You’ll make a good wife some day. You hyphenated your name? Take his last name. Crazy feminist. Give him children. You don’t want children? You will some day. You will change your mind.
Be a lady they said. Don’t get raped. Protect yourself. Don’t drink too much. Don’t walk alone. Don’t go out too late. Don’t dress like that. Don’t show too much. Don’t leave your drink. Have a buddy. Walk where it’s well lit. Stay in safe neighbourhoods. Tell someone where you’re going. Bring pepper spray. Buy a rape whistle. Hold your keys like a weapon. Take a self defence course. Check your trunk. Lock your doors. Don’t go out alone. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t bat your eyelashes. Don’t look easy. Don’t attract attention. Don’t work late. Don’t crack dirty jokes. Don’t smile at strangers. Don’t go out at night. Don’t trust anyone. Don’t say yes. Don’t say no.
Just “be a lady” they said.
-Camille Rainville

OP posts:
Ontarioontario · 15/05/2024 09:19

Many centuries of conditioning and particularly embedded within religions all the way back to Eve! When my girls (all girls state-)school celebrated world hijab day recently (from the school website:"a symbol of empowerment for many Muslim women.") I had the urge to storm down and picket, yet another thing linking women's piety to how they choose to dress rather than their actions and what's in their hearts and to how they have to dress so as not to inflame men's desires.

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 09:40

Hateam · 15/05/2024 07:28

Internalised misogyny will part of this but isn't the full answer.

Some women are just not very nice. They don't give a shit about anybody: shop workers, men, waiters they're just terrible. They're don't give a shit for other women either. They'll throw anybody under a bus to make their own life easier and get what they want. That's not internalised misogyny, that's just being a terrible person. T

I think we’re getting misogyny mixed up with just being an unpleasant person, the two don’t necessarily go hand in hand. Some nasty, argumentative selfish people may not ever do or say anything misogynistic. Just as perfectly nice, friendly people can be terribly misogynistic ( probably without realising) my late mum’s friend is a prime example. Very nice woman, friendly, helpful, do anything for anyone type of person but held very questionable views when it came to any sort of assault of a woman on the news- why do women get so drunk on a night out? asking for trouble. Why do women wear next to nothing? Asking for trouble. Why was she in a park at night? Asking for trouble etc etc not one thing said about the men who committed the crimes.
That wasn’t her being nasty, it was her internalised misogyny.

OP posts:
Drivinginmycar · 15/05/2024 09:44

I've just realised reading this that the patriarchal structures, culture and social conditioning that puts women below men can be compared to some extent to being stuck in a relationship with a man who has psychopathic, machiavellien and narcissistic traits.
Certainly eye opening.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 15/05/2024 09:56

Part of it is probably self protection. If you can point and say look at that woman, how disgusting, look what she's wearing, doing then no one is looking at you.

I'm making a conscious decision not to raise my dd to dress modestly to protect herself, not to feel she can't walk alone when its dark, I am however teaching her to keep her muscles warm to avoid strains (she's a dancer) and that company is always better,I meet her because its a good time to chat and we enjoy the companionship. It has the same effect but takes away the blame

FindThatThing · 15/05/2024 10:09

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 07:28

Was also making me think of all the language which only applies to women/ girls.
Tramp
Whore
Slag
Slut
Skank
Bitch
Bint
Slapper
Bike
And many more I can’t think of just now.
What are the male alternatives?

Other things women get called…

Prude

Frigid

Boring

Cold

Dead / cold fish

Tease

Too much work / hassle

Claims of being ”repressed” if a woman says no to sex/kink/wearing less clothes/make-up….etc

Also ugly, frumpy, not taking care of herself is she doesn’t wear make-up, revealing clothes, care about hair and nails

Being called ”waste” if a woman is a lesbian or asexual

Selfish/useless if a woman doesn’t have or want kids.
Or a boyfriend/husband/sex

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 10:14

FindThatThing · 15/05/2024 10:09

Other things women get called…

Prude

Frigid

Boring

Cold

Dead / cold fish

Tease

Too much work / hassle

Claims of being ”repressed” if a woman says no to sex/kink/wearing less clothes/make-up….etc

Also ugly, frumpy, not taking care of herself is she doesn’t wear make-up, revealing clothes, care about hair and nails

Being called ”waste” if a woman is a lesbian or asexual

Selfish/useless if a woman doesn’t have or want kids.
Or a boyfriend/husband/sex

Yes to all of those and forgot the classic…
Hysterical

OP posts:
deydododatdodontdeydo · 15/05/2024 10:22

Part of it is probably self protection. If you can point and say look at that woman, how disgusting, look what she's wearing, doing then no one is looking at you.

Yes, the second point rings true I think. A lot of this happened to me at school, with groups of girls shaming other girls for any number of reasons (chest too small/big being a common one).
Also happened to a lesser extent with school gate mums.
I think there is a certain gang mentality to it, and if you're in with the gang you're not a target youirself.

Coincidentally I was recently reading about medieval fashion, and the rules for both men and women were extremely strict in 1300 but then tunics started to get shorter for men which scandalised people but women continued to dress "modestly" until later in the century.
I'm sure shaming for not fitting in has gone on forever, not just social media.

Pearlinda · 15/05/2024 11:54

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 07:28

Was also making me think of all the language which only applies to women/ girls.
Tramp
Whore
Slag
Slut
Skank
Bitch
Bint
Slapper
Bike
And many more I can’t think of just now.
What are the male alternatives?

And this is getting no better either. I’m a secondary school teacher and these are the first words thrown at girls by other girls and boys. Compared to 10 years ago we hear less racist and homophobic language in our school (inner city, deprived are) but the misogynistic language is increasing rapidly.

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 12:09

0w1 · 15/05/2024 06:10

Yeh there could be another verse

Play the game! Play along, collude with this 'song". No wait Be a siste!. Stand up for your sex. Don't be like the other girls, be better, be more, be stronger, but don't be crazy, don't scare away men.

Yeah this for sure!

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 12:12

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 08:31

well, I think of myself as a feminist - I don't see the contradiction here!

Like being a woman, it seems that anyone can self-identify as a feminist these days without having anything to actually demonstrate it.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 15/05/2024 12:19

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 07:28

Was also making me think of all the language which only applies to women/ girls.
Tramp
Whore
Slag
Slut
Skank
Bitch
Bint
Slapper
Bike
And many more I can’t think of just now.
What are the male alternatives?

Men aren't usually shamed for their promiscuity so I don't think there are alternatives.
Usually they are shamed for being "less than men" i.e., soft, gay, feminine, etc.

Drivinginmycar · 15/05/2024 12:25

@Pearlinda '' I'm a secondary school teacher and these are the first words thrown at girls by other girls and boys. Compared to 10 years ago we hear less racist and homophobic language in our school (inner city, deprived are) but the misogynistic language is increasing rapidly."

Do you think that as racist and homophobic language and actions are less acceptable, there is only girls and women left to target so it is now worse for them?

Bumblebeeinatree · 15/05/2024 12:27

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 07:28

Was also making me think of all the language which only applies to women/ girls.
Tramp
Whore
Slag
Slut
Skank
Bitch
Bint
Slapper
Bike
And many more I can’t think of just now.
What are the male alternatives?

And for men

Wanker
Dick
Faggot
Prick
Cad
Dirty Dog
Bastard
Git
Jerk
Prat
Tool
Wimp
Cock Lodger (staple of MN)

No doubt many more

Pearlinda · 15/05/2024 12:28

Drivinginmycar · 15/05/2024 12:25

@Pearlinda '' I'm a secondary school teacher and these are the first words thrown at girls by other girls and boys. Compared to 10 years ago we hear less racist and homophobic language in our school (inner city, deprived are) but the misogynistic language is increasing rapidly."

Do you think that as racist and homophobic language and actions are less acceptable, there is only girls and women left to target so it is now worse for them?

I think you are absolutely right on that @Drivinginmycar

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 12:33

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 12:12

Like being a woman, it seems that anyone can self-identify as a feminist these days without having anything to actually demonstrate it.

I really dont understand what you mean. I am a feminist. I ignore the instructions in that face book post. What is the issue?

Hoppinggreen · 15/05/2024 12:41

0w1 · 15/05/2024 07:01

@Hateam question for you to ponder why does policing other women's dress/behaviour make their lives easier.

Men rarely police other men, even though, my God, they should.

Men are the ones raping, murdering, objectifying women and abandoning children.

But it is women who judge other women ?
Why is that?

Protection.
Its better to burn The Witch than be The Witch

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 12:48

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 12:33

I really dont understand what you mean. I am a feminist. I ignore the instructions in that face book post. What is the issue?

Feminists wouldn't ignore those instructions, they would comment on them

Jasmine82 · 15/05/2024 12:48

Bumblebeeinatree · 15/05/2024 12:27

And for men

Wanker
Dick
Faggot
Prick
Cad
Dirty Dog
Bastard
Git
Jerk
Prat
Tool
Wimp
Cock Lodger (staple of MN)

No doubt many more

None of those are alternatives to slag, whore , tramp, slut, easy etc
There are no male alternatives bringing a man’s virtue into question. That’s what I meant.

OP posts:
Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 13:17

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 12:33

I really dont understand what you mean. I am a feminist. I ignore the instructions in that face book post. What is the issue?

This is my final reply to you.
Loads of awesome women have replied to this thread with thoughtful insightful comments that add value to this conversation. I'm enjoying that interaction so much.
You have just argued that these things can be ignored and that women are over- reacting or something along those lines... gaslighting basically. I'm pretty sure you are here to derail. I don't want to waste my energy on that.

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 13:20

Pearlinda · 15/05/2024 11:54

And this is getting no better either. I’m a secondary school teacher and these are the first words thrown at girls by other girls and boys. Compared to 10 years ago we hear less racist and homophobic language in our school (inner city, deprived are) but the misogynistic language is increasing rapidly.

Scary hey? Hate speech against women is ok. I don't understand why governments or social media companies won't recognise it. I sometimes wonder if it's because they are so blind to it they just don't see it.

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 21:26

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 12:48

Feminists wouldn't ignore those instructions, they would comment on them

I have commented. I commented that we don't need to pay any attention to these "instructions" or act on them. Why is my comment any less valid than anyone elses?

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 21:32

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 13:17

This is my final reply to you.
Loads of awesome women have replied to this thread with thoughtful insightful comments that add value to this conversation. I'm enjoying that interaction so much.
You have just argued that these things can be ignored and that women are over- reacting or something along those lines... gaslighting basically. I'm pretty sure you are here to derail. I don't want to waste my energy on that.

So someone posts a list of hateful instructions that are repeated to women, and I reply we don't have to act on any of them.

For this, I am told I am not a feminist. I am too stupid to understand or notice these instructions in my life. You don't want to interact with me. I am not awesome, or thoughtful, or insightful enough, I am accused of gaslighting, and you say you don't want to waste your energy on me.

This is ironic, as much of this thread is about why women are so nasty to women. Are so so completely unself aware that you can contribute to a thread about women bullying women, in this manner, and not have any qualms about it?

And you neve even answered my point, that women do not have to conform to any of these rules, why should they? And what is wrong with saying that?

It is very likely that I am a far more active feminist than you are, and have been for far longer.

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 23:07

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 21:32

So someone posts a list of hateful instructions that are repeated to women, and I reply we don't have to act on any of them.

For this, I am told I am not a feminist. I am too stupid to understand or notice these instructions in my life. You don't want to interact with me. I am not awesome, or thoughtful, or insightful enough, I am accused of gaslighting, and you say you don't want to waste your energy on me.

This is ironic, as much of this thread is about why women are so nasty to women. Are so so completely unself aware that you can contribute to a thread about women bullying women, in this manner, and not have any qualms about it?

And you neve even answered my point, that women do not have to conform to any of these rules, why should they? And what is wrong with saying that?

It is very likely that I am a far more active feminist than you are, and have been for far longer.

I unreservedly apologise if I have misread you

60andsomething · 15/05/2024 23:09

Onionbelt · 15/05/2024 23:07

I unreservedly apologise if I have misread you

Thank you💐

Valeriekat · 22/05/2024 14:39

We have to simultaneously be feminine but not sexy?
Play rugby young women. Where the players come in all shapes and sizes.

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